Lasix enhances performance

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What exactly is "unfair" about it? Unfair to who? The horses?

If lasix helps prevent or lessen the severity of a bleeding incident and we have no idea when a bleeding incident will occur than how exactly do you know what horses don't need it?

I just don't find forcing an owner to spend money to drug a horse that doesn't need it to be on a level playing field with the other horses fair. Crazy, I know. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll never believe that many horses need Lasix when the rest of the world doesn't use it. Also, our country did just fine without it for the better part of a century.

At least you aren't arguing that Lasix isn't a performance enhancer any longer.

[Fearless Leader]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I just don't find forcing an owner to spend money to drug a horse that doesn't need it to be on a level playing field with the other horses fair. Crazy, I know. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll never believe that many horses need Lasix when the rest of the world doesn't use it. Also, our country did just fine without it for the better part of a century.

At least you aren't arguing that Lasix isn't a performance enhancer any longer.

YYaaawnnnnnnn !!!!! Your entire argument is flawed and totally ridiculous. Stop whining already. Your are absolutely 100% incorrect about virtually everything you have said on this topic.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

YYaaawnnnnnnn !!!!! Your entire argument is flawed and totally ridiculous. Stop whining already. Your are absolutely 100% incorrect about virtually everything you have said on this topic.

Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.

[Fearless Leader]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.

Sid Gustafson, D.V.M., is a novelist and equine veterinarian specializing in thoroughbred sports medicine and equine behavior. He currently practices regulatory veterinary medicine, representing the safety and welfare of thoroughbred racehorses.


The bold type in the guy's resume should tell you all you need to know. This guy is as far off the mark and delusional as Glenn Thompson, another novelist on the subject, is.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

Sid Gustafson, D.V.M., is a novelist and equine veterinarian specializing in thoroughbred sports medicine and equine behavior. He currently practices regulatory veterinary medicine, representing the safety and welfare of thoroughbred racehorses.


The bold type in the guy's resume should tell you all you need to know. This guy is as far off the mark and delusional as Glenn Thompson, another novelist on the subject, is.

Again, what did he say that was inaccurate?

[Fearless Leader]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Again, what did he say that was inaccurate?

The novelist hasn't stated a single fact. All he has done is state his opinion to try and support his cleanhorseracing.org/no lasix agenda. For you to accept any of this as gospel speaks volumes.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Fearless Leader

The novelist hasn't stated a single fact. All he has done is state his opinion to try and support his cleanhorseracing.org/no lasix agenda. For you to accept any of this as gospel speaks volumes.

This sounds like a fact to me:

"The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. "

By all means, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

"Drug Them All"...I'm really liking that. I see a real boon to the sport if this takes off.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.

Actually we arrived at this point because far too many people have bought into propaganda without understanding the design behind the plan. You are being duped into believing nonsense from people like Sid Guftason who is trying to promote his holistic crap and bs books. Phipps and company have tricked you into believing that the elimination of lasix is going to lead to some sort of prosperity and level playing field, ignoring all other issues by focusing on something that is noted in the program giving it a tangible feel. A ban on lasix makes the sport more expensive for owners a group already shrinking, almost assuredly will lead to more NY Times "incidents" with more horses bleeding severely and less formful races as various treatments (all unknown to bettors) will work to widely varying degrees.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Actually we arrived at this point because far too many people have bought into propaganda without understanding the design behind the plan. You are being duped into believing nonsense from people like Sid Guftason who is trying to promote his holistic crap and bs books. Phipps and company have tricked you into believing that the elimination of lasix is going to lead to some sort of prosperity and level playing field, ignoring all other issues by focusing on something that is noted in the program giving it a tangible feel. A ban on lasix makes the sport more expensive for owners a group already shrinking, almost assuredly will lead to more NY Times "incidents" with more horses bleeding severely and less formful races as various treatments (all unknown to bettors) will work to widely varying degrees.

Actually, I believe nothing of the sort. I just know Lasix is a performance enhancer and have said so all along. That has really been the only thing I've argued about.

I don't care if horses get Lasix, but it should be fair. There are other ways around it. Why not give horses not using it a 5 pound weight break and/or make the price to claim them higher?

Drug them all...sounds the best answer to me.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't care if horses get Lasix, but it should be fair. There are other ways around it. Why not give horses not using it a 5 pound weight break and/or make the price to claim them higher?

What exactly will this accomplish? How is giving equal access to the same medication which is regulated and cheap unfair?

Is it fair that Sheikh Mo's trainers have an unlimited budget to treat their horses with all the latest treatments when the rest of us dont have that luxury? Is it fair that certain trainers seem to get races written specifically for them? Is it fair that some of us go to the yearling sale armed with budgets of thousands when others have millions?

The idea that there are those who are "forced" to use lasix and should be rewarded for not using it is completely flawed. Why not give horses who draw outside posts in two turn races less weight? Why not give rookie trainers 3 pounds like apprentice jockeys? Why not give horses ridden by less than 8% jockeys 2 pounds?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What exactly will this accomplish? How is giving equal access to the same medication which is regulated and cheap unfair?

We'll just never see each other's point I guess. To me, you are saying since everyone can be drugged cheaply it is their problem if they don't use it. I'll never agree with that. If Lasix is so great, surely giving five pounds or a 50% edge in claiming prices to those not using isn't a big deal.

Drug the all Chuck, drug them all, that is the spirit.

As for Danzig's post about best for the horse, I've addressed this several times. If you want to believe this sport is about what is best for the horse, I have some prime coast land to sell you here in Oklahoma. I wish it was. I love horses. But we all know that isn't the case the majority of the time. Should I started listing more horses that were treated like disposable tissues?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I just don't find forcing an owner to spend money to drug a horse that doesn't need it to be on a level playing field with the other horses fair. Crazy, I know. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll never believe that many horses need Lasix when the rest of the world doesn't use it. Also, our country did just fine without it for the better part of a century.

At least you aren't arguing that Lasix isn't a performance enhancer any longer.

So now the concern is the owners financial welfare? Of all the things owners are "forced" to spend the $20 for a shot of lasix is the cheapest and most effective per dollar spent.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years or supposing what goes on in foreign countries to be a waste of time.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So now the concern is the owners financial welfare? Of all the things owners are "forced" to spend the $20 for a shot of lasix is the cheapest and most effective per dollar spent.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years or supposing what goes on in foreign countries to be a waste of time.

It isn't just spending the money. In what alternate reality world is it acceptable just to give drugs to nearly every participant, and those that don't take it are at a disadvantage. I mean really, that is nuts.

You are saying if you don't want to drug your horse you are at a disadvantage, but that is fine...just can drug them all. And who cares if they have to spend $20, we rob them so many other ways. So those not using drugs are penalized. Nice. Maybe the NTRA could adapt that as a new slogan. I guess it beats "Go, Baby, Go", right. I like the ring to it..."Drug them all!"

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.

Originally Posted by cmorioles

It isn't just spending the money. In what alternate reality world is it acceptable just to give drugs to nearly every participant, and those that don't take it are at a disadvantage. I mean really, that is nuts.

You are saying if you don't want to drug your horse you are at a disadvantage, but that is fine...just can drug them all. And who cares if they have to spend $20, we rob them so many other ways. So those not using drugs are penalized. Nice. Maybe the NTRA could adapt that as a new slogan. I guess it beats "Go, Baby, Go", right. I like the ring to it..."Drug them all!"

I'm glad you are stated to be neutral on the subject lol. Let's just agree to disagree because I feel silly having to refute Sid Guftason. This is like trying to explain why dailykos.com isn't a credible source of information on GOP topics.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm glad you are stated to be neutral on the subject lol. Let's just agree to disagree because I feel silly having to refute Sid Guftason. This is like trying to explain why dailykos.com isn't a credible source of information on GOP topics.

Is he the equivalent of listening to a 5% trainer?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

This sounds like a fact to me:

"The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. "

By all means, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

"Drug Them All"...I'm really liking that. I see a real boon to the sport if this takes off.

[quote=cmorioles;864342]Is he the equivalent of listening to a 5% trainer?[/

Janet del Castillo sells books on training

[Indian Charlie]

Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.