Well, this isn't good...

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Who are some of the trainers having success abusing the jail rule right now?

A lot of the alchemists trainers normally will give horses a little time off of the claim before they start plunging them.

Having claimed horses for $3,500 - $4,000 - and $5,000 before ... it's very annoying to have to wait out an entire month or run them against open $7,500 horses which is stupid.

I don't follow trainers at the small tracks that closely, just learn the move up guys.

You are missing the point though. Why would you claim a horse for 5k if you didn't think it was better than a 5k horse?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You are missing the point though. Why would you claim a horse for 5k if you didn't think it was better than a 5k horse?

If I'm going to claim a horse for $5,000 I want to win as many open 5K claimers with him as possible.

Lets say the horse wins by 3 lengths and runs a figure on par with or faster than par with your typical open $7,500 claiming level winner...and come back fine.

With the jail rule: he's running back in a month or two at open 5K level. Hopefully people will be bluffed but most likely he's getting claimed.

Without the jail rule: he's running back at the open 5K level as soon as possible. Hopefully people will be bluffed but most likely he's getting claimed.

The only difference is that the rule forces the horse to sit out.

Now, lets say the horse runs 4th by 5 lengths and comes out of the race well.

With the jail rule: He's forced to wait out a month before he can enter.

without jail: He's running back for 5k as soon as a race goes that he fits distance wise.


Now lets say the horse comes back bad. You can't drop from the bottom.


I suppose the jail rule is fine as long as it starts a few rungs off the bottom. When you have guys claiming stuff for 15K and running back for 5K two weeks later ... that's not good. That just doesn't happen very often though.

[Linny]

There were a lot of big drops off the claim over the winter. It has slowed considerably, as has the number of breakdowns.

I just read where NY R&W is intituting a rule by which the purse may not be more than two times the claiming tag. Makes sense to me. I know horsemen will bark but if the game is facing massive protests by useful idiots and other assaults, it's small price. Over the winter $7500 horses were running for about $40k. That is simply too much.

When the claim box is so active you can almost assume that if your horse is in form, he'll be claimed. That knowledge can lead some people to not bother to look at a horse's health with an eye to the long view.

As for the NYT, I wonder why they waited for the Monday of Derby week to begin their annual "ramp up the excitement about racing" series? Did the occupiers come back and take up all their happy stories?

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Linny

There were a lot of big drops off the claim over the winter. It has slowed considerably, as has the number of breakdowns.

I just read where NY R&W is intituting a rule by which the purse may not be more than two times the claiming tag. Makes sense to me. I know horsemen will bark but if the game is facing massive protests by useful idiots and other assaults, it's small price. Over the winter $7500 horses were running for about $40k. That is simply too much.

When the claim box is so active you can almost assume that if your horse is in form, he'll be claimed. That knowledge can lead some people to not bother to look at a horse's health with an eye to the long view.

The situation this winter at Aqueduct may have just been a run of bad luck (not my view), or a confluence of many factors (some of which NYS and the RWB bear responsiblility for, although you will never get such acknowledgement) that led to a situation with which no one was happy.

$7500 claimers were not running for $40,000 for most of the winter at Aqueduct. They were generally running for $30,000 (and for $40,000 on a few isolated occasions - Gotham Day and Wood Day, when all full fields were boosted by $10,000). It may be too much, but keep in mind that $7500 claimers currently run for $23,000 at Parx, and there is competition among the tracks for horses, especially during the winter. To enact a rule as a knee-jerk reaction without looking at the entire landscape and regulate that NYRA can only run such races for a $15,000 purse next winter likely means that there will be no $7,500 claimers running here next winter. (That might not be a bad thing, as the hope is that the racino money will lead to the bottom rising in NY, but I doubt the RWB considered such things.)

As for the bolded language above, I agree completely.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

If I'm going to claim a horse for $5,000 I want to win as many open 5K claimers with him as possible...

I get all this, but that isn't the way the game was supposed to played. You didn't expect to lose 5k horses because they were legitimate $5k horses. People claimed horses because they thought they were undervalued, not valued just right. Slots changed all that, and the horses get the short end of the stick.

This isn't a new thing as you know. The purse/claiming price ratio has been a problem for a decade, but it is mostly at places where nobody notices outside of us diehards. It was never going to fly in New York when horses started breaking down.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I get all this, but that isn't the way the game was supposed to played. You didn't expect to lose 5k horses because they were legitimate $5k horses. People claimed horses because they thought they were undervalued, not valued just right. Slots changed all that, and the horses get the short end of the stick.

This isn't a new thing as you know. The purse/claiming price ratio has been a problem for a decade, but it is mostly at places where nobody notices outside of us diehards. It was never going to fly in New York when horses started breaking down.

I hear ya.

But hey, they're about to have legal prostitution over by Fort Erie. http://www.goerieblogs.com/news/writ...on-in-ontario/

We already have slots, table games, even Pai-Gow at Presque Isle Downs ... how long until prostitution becomes the new slots?

[Cannon Shell]

The jail rule is really not going to do very much in terms of stopping breakdowns and in some cases actually can be a contributing cause. Lets not forget that a guy dumping a horse off the claim is 1st trying to dump the horse and secondly trying to earn some purse money back. Just delaying that 25 or 30 days doesnt really help the horse unless there is a new 30 day cure that has been developed. What some trainers do when they claim a bad one with a jail rule in place is simply walk the horse for 3 weeks, maybe pony without a rider on it for a few days and then drop the horse in. Because they have been given a short break often the horses start to feel better, act a little less sore and are able to pass the vet exam. Then because they are feeling better, may warm up ok and the jock lets them run. However often the underlying issue wasnt actually healed and as the horse puts forth effort the leg comes apart.

This isnt to say that this wont happen if the rule isnt in place either but relying on rules with little regard to the individuals who are calling the shots is misguided.

I agree that purses for lower level races can be out of whack but lets not forget for those who dont pay the bills that you have to give owners a reasonable chance of getting some return.

[cmorioles]

Cannon, I don't disagree with any of that. However, the point would be to stop those with the specific intent of flipping a horse quickly for less money and trying to win a purse. It makes it a bigger gamble, less chance for success with more expenses.

No doubt it won't change anything for those that take a horse for more upstanding reasons that comes back bad.

[GenuineRisk]

it's an upsetting article, but I had to laugh at the angry commenter who said they were "finding out" who the main sponsor of the Kentucky Derby is so they could "boycott their product." Le sigh.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Cannon, I don't disagree with any of that. However, the point would be to stop those with the specific intent of flipping a horse quickly for less money and trying to win a purse. It makes it a bigger gamble, less chance for success with more expenses.

No doubt it won't change anything for those that take a horse for more upstanding reasons that comes back bad.

I understand but we are only talking 25-30 days versus what? 15-20? Perhaps if there were more thorough investigations done when there is a breakdown trainers would be a bit more careful.

[Sightseek]

I never heard the story about Star Plus and the lenghts that Earle Mack went through to get him back.