Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[cmorioles]

You are being ridiculous. Which races allow the humans to take Lasix?

Maybe 93% show "some" bleeding, but of that percentage, how many can race without side effects and really need it to be successful? I'm guessing it is a MUCH smaller number. After all, we had racing for a century before it was deemed necessary for so many horses.

Plain and simple, it was abused because many felt it was a performance enhancer and that those that actually did need it were getting an advantage. So, they started searching for easier and easier ways to get Lasix for the horse. That is what got us where we are today.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You are being ridiculous. Which races allow the humans to take Lasix?

I'm saying that Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage is not a problem only of horses.

Maybe 93% show "some" bleeding, but of that percentage, how many can race without side effects and really need it to be successful? I'm guessing it is a MUCH smaller number.

How do you define "successful"? Earning money?

Because I'm sure the horse would much prefer to have air in his alveolar sacs during running, instead of blood and hemosiderophages. It makes oxygenation easier.

After all, we had racing for a century before it was deemed necessary for so many horses.

A century ago, we didn't have the modern medical capability we have now. Medical advancement in health care of the horse is a good thing. We didn't have penicillin during World War one. Does that mean we shouldn't have used it in Viet Nam?

And we've raced horses for much longer than a century.

Plain and simple, it was abused because many felt it was a performance enhancer and that those that actually did need it were getting an advantage. So, they started searching for easier and easier ways to get Lasix for the horse. That is what got us where we are today.

But today we have modern medicine, and research, and we are far more educated on the extent and complications of EIPH in race horses. We are completely familiar with the pharmacology of lasix. We haven't had a problem with lasix diluting drug samples for over 20 years.

So now, with our increased education and knowledge, the veterinary world is advising the horse racing world to allow one drug - lasix - to continue to be used as a therapeutic medication on race day, for the health and welfare of the horse.

But those that control racing are making a stupid, ignorant choice to do the opposite, based upon outdated and no longer valid "reasons and knowledge" from literally decades ago.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm saying that Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage is not a problem only of horses.

And yet, life goes on without Lasix outside of horse racing in athletic competition.

I'm starting the think the stupid, ignorant choice that was made was allowing Lasix in the first place.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

And yet, life goes on without Lasix outside of horse racing in athletic competition.

And those horses suffer worse from EIPH than race horses.

I'm starting the think the stupid, ignorant choice that was made was allowing Lasix in the first place.

Who cares what was done 50 years ago? When I was a child, I was taught to drench colic horses with a mixture of turpentine and linseed oil! Now we knows that probably killed alot of horses - yet veterinarians did it!

Medicine advances. Sports medicine advances, in humans and animals. I attended a veterinary conference yesterday on diagnosis and treatment of back and hind end injuries in performance horses, and half the diagnostic techniques, and most of the treatments, were not even available, let alone taught to me, when I graduated veterinary college.

We need to use what we know today. Not pretend we are in the 1800's. Or even the 1990's. It's 2012.

And by the way: several of the recommended treatments are viewed as "race horse trainer cheating" by some lay people because for many years, race horse trainers have abused and misused some things associated with those therapies. Does that make them less valid when used appropriately as a medical treatment? Of course not.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Gary Stevens is going to testify before Congress. Stevens takes a zero-tolerance stance on race-day medication. Stevens must be a terrible guy to take such a stance. He must have some really selfish and negative intentions. It's either that, or he must just be really ignorant on the subject. LOL. Let the attacks on Stevens begin.

http://www.drf.com/news/hovdey-steve...day-medication

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Gary Stevens is going to testify before Congress. Stevens takes a zero-tolerance stance on race-day medication. Stevens must be a terrible guy to take such a stance. He must have some really selfish and negative intentions. It's either that, or he must just be really ignorant on the subject. LOL. Let the attacks on Stevens begin.

http://www.drf.com/news/hovdey-steve...day-medication

Congress are the last people that should be making medical decisions for doctors and their patients, don't you agree?

Veterinarians are quite willing to testify before Congress supporting a complete ban on all possible performance-enhancing drugs on race day in the horse industry. Every major veterinary organization in the country has come out publicly and strongly for that position: see the above position statements.

That doesn't include lasix, however. It does include all race day NSAIDS, and all current "bleeding prevention" adjunct drugs. Why is that? Why only lasix? Hummmm .....

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Congress are the last people that should be making medical decisions for doctors and their patients, don't you agree?

No, I do not agree. I totally disagree. The horseracing industry has done a horrible job of policing itself. The fox has not done a good job of guarding the hen-house. They've had the last 20 years to clean up the sport and they won't do it.

I think the doctor/patient argument is a horrible analogy here. In general, doctors usually do what is best for their patients. Doctors work for their patients. In horseracing, the vet does not work for his patient (the horse). The vets works for the owner and trainer, both of whom often do not have the best interest of the horse in mind.

If owners and trainers had the best interest of the horse in mind, you wouldn't have the state vet scratching horses the morning of the race. Why does the state vet scratch horses the morning of the race? Because trainers will sometimes attempt to run unsound horses. This proves that some trainers do not have the best interest of the horse in mind.

Anyway, you have a sport where hundreds of millions of dollars are being bet. When you have that much money being bet, there needs to be a governing body that insures integrity. With the stock market, they don't police themselves. You have the SEC that does that.

There needs to be someone there to protect the horses and protect the public. In my opinion, the racing industry has proven time and time again that they are incapable of policing themselves. Any time someone wants to make a significant change, the owners and trainers start dragging their feet. I'd rather have the industry take charge of itself but if they're not going to do it, then I have no problem with the government coming in.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Gary Stevens is going to testify before Congress. Stevens takes a zero-tolerance stance on race-day medication. Stevens must be a terrible guy to take such a stance. He must have some really selfish and negative intentions. It's either that, or he must just be really ignorant on the subject. LOL. Let the attacks on Stevens begin.

http://www.drf.com/news/hovdey-steve...day-medication

Why does anyone care what Gary Stevens thinks about the topic? And why does his own personal experience matter considering he is not only being disingenious about why he kept coming back to ride not to mention because he is not a horse it isnt really relevant.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

... not to mention because he is not a horse it isnt really relevant.

So anything you or your ex-employee say isn't relevant either? I know you aren't a horse, and I don't think Riot is either.

Seriously though Chuck, if racing were trying to be legalized today and one of the stipulations was that virtually every horse had to receive a drug injection before racing, what are the chances it would, in fact, be legalized?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why does anyone care what Gary Stevens thinks about the topic? And why does his own personal experience matter considering he is not only being disingenious about why he kept coming back to ride not to mention because he is not a horse it isnt really relevant.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

Who cares what was done 50 years ago? When I was a child, I was taught to drench colic horses with a mixture of turpentine and linseed oil! Now we knows that probably killed alot of horses - yet veterinarians did it!

This is the closest you've ever come to making any sort of sense.

I assure you, in 50 years, they are going to be saying the same kind of thing as what you said about colic.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

This is the closest you've ever come to making any sort of sense.

I assure you, in 50 years, they are going to be saying the same kind of thing as what you said about colic.

LOL - About lasix? Heck no. We know all about the pharmacology of lasix.

[cmorioles]

1994, BC Classic, 14 horses run, 6 with Lasix. Lasix horses take the first 6 spots.
1995, 10 of 11 with Lasix
1996, 11 of 13
1997, 9 of 9
1998, 9 of 10
1999, 14 of 14
2000, 13 of 13
2001, 13 of 13
2002, 12 of 12
2003, 10 of 10
2004, 12 of 13, foreign shipper lone exception
2005, 13 of 13
2006, 12 of 13, foreign shipper lone exception
2007, 9 of 9
2008, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2009, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2010, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2011, 12 of 12

Since 1999, EVERY American horse in our best race has been injected with a drug to race. Not 93%, but 100%. We are talking around 130 horse and EVERY one was given Lasix. Sure, it isn't abused.

[Riot]

Since 1999, EVERY American horse in our best race has been injected with a drug to race. Not 93%, but 100%. We are talking around 130 horse and EVERY one was given Lasix. Sure, it isn't abused.

Your assumption is mere use = abuse.

My viewpoint - based upon the science - is that use = therapy good for the horse.

Who cares what was done 10 years ago? 100 years ago? What matters is what we know now, today, about the horse's health.

And those that know race horse health best, the veterinary world, based upon today's medical knowledge and research, are advising the racing world to allow one drug - lasix - to be used on race day as a therapeutic medication for the health and welfare of the race horse.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

Your assumption is mere use = abuse.

My viewpoint - based upon the science - is that use = therapy good for the horse.

Who cares what was done 10 years ago? 100 years ago? What matters is what we know now, today, about the horse's health.

And those that know race horse health best, the veterinary world, based upon today's medical knowledge and research, are advising the racing world to allow one drug - lasix - to be used on race day as a therapeutic medication for the health and welfare of the race horse.

Simple, 93% of horses allegedly need it, yet 100% get it. Sure, that makes sense.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Simple, 93% of horses allegedly need it, yet 100% get it. Sure, that makes sense.

Do you know what is required on the race track to get permission from the stewards to give a horse lasix on race day?

[cmorioles]

Yes, virtually nothing. I know that isn't what is on paper. I've spent plenty of time on the backstretch, and that is reality.

[cmorioles]

For me, if all horses need drugs to race, preventive or otherwise, there shouldn't be racing. I can't think of any other sport for any type of being where this would even be considered.