NBA is back (apparently)

I will say that LeBron will be considered one of the greats if he can win 2 championships. That's a big if though. He's got as much time on the court as Magic and Bird did when they were completing their championship runs. Wade is getting old too.

They have a 4 year window tops to hit at 50%. I don't see it happening.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I will say that LeBron will be considered one of the greats if he can win 2 championships. That's a big if though. He's got as much time on the court as Magic and Bird did when they were completing their championship runs. Wade is getting old too.

They have a 4 year window tops to hit at 50%. I don't see it happening.

Comparing LeBron's situation coming into the league with Bird/Magic is crazy.

LeBron was drafted by a team coming off of a 17-65 season with Ricky Davis being the best player. They improved 18 wins with no other additions (though you could argue the subtraction of Davis helped). The other 4 starters for his 2nd year when they improved to 42 wins:
C- Ilgauskas
F-Drew Gooden
F-Ira Newbie
G- Jeff McInnis

2 years later they lost in the Finals with Larry Hughes, Eric Snow, Sasha Pavlovic, Ilgauskas and Gooden. Not a single player other than James ever played a signifigant role on an NBA team before or after.

Magic's 1st year he was drafted by LA to play with Jabbar, Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and Jom Chones on a team that went 47-35 the previous year. The next year Magic was injured but in his 3rd year they added Micheal Cooper, Rambis, Mitch Kupchak and Bob McAdoo. The next year they added James Worthy. Every player Magic played with was better than any player LeBron played with. Perhaps Kupchak, Chones and Rambis were similar to Ilgaukas and Gooden but those were secondary players not starters.

Bird's 1st year was a huge improvement from the previous year when there was almost a mutiny by the players. The team he played with had Tiny Archibald, Dave Cowens (both on the downside but 31 years old), Gerald Henderson, Cornbread Maxwell, Robey, ML Carr, Chris Ford and Pistol Pete. The next 2 years they added McHale, Parish and Danny Ainge.

LeBron has failed at winning the championship with 1 legit team, last year. They dont have any excuses this year barring an unforseen injury. But the if Magic and Bird's teams are the measure of success then no one will ever match them because the salary cap will never allow that many good players to play together.

And Kobe is not only a selfish player and always has been but is the most selfish great player ever. It actually says something about his stature that he refused to share the ball pretty much his whole career yet was still able to win championships and be thought of as highly as he is.

Oh now I feel sorry for him. He had the option to not report. Instead he settled and even stayed longer than required. Had full control of who he could add to the roster.

Come on.

[Dahoss]

Give me someone selfish who doesn't disappear in the finals over the other side every single day.

I get it, people don't "like" Kobe, because he doesn't exactly come across as a likable guy. Who cares? It's not a popularity contest.

I despise the word hater, but Kobe has a lot of them.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Give me someone selfish who doesn't disappear in the finals over the other side every single day.

I get it, people don't "like" Kobe, because he doesn't exactly come across as a likable guy. Who cares? It's not a popularity contest.

I despise the word hater, but Kobe has a lot of them.

Kobe's number of haters is miniscule compared to James. The entire idea of measuring individual players in a team sport by championships is a slippery slope considering the number of other factors other than 1 players performance.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Oh now I feel sorry for him. He had the option to not report. Instead he settled and even stayed longer than required. Had full control of who he could add to the roster.

Come on.

Facts are facts. You are comparing the "championship" record of two guys that went into situations where they were surrounded by hall of fame players, all stars and solid NBA players to a guy who was drafted by the Cleveland Cavs led by Ricky Davis. Say what you want about the individuals but the idea that not winning championships with those Cleveland teams as a sign of failure by James is misguided.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Facts are facts. You are comparing the "championship" record of two guys that went into situations where they were surrounded by hall of fame players, all stars and solid NBA players to a guy who was drafted by the Cleveland Cavs led by Ricky Davis. Say what you want about the individuals but the idea that not winning championships with those Cleveland teams as a sign of failure by James is misguided.

Yes and Bird and Magic didn't win championships after their 10th season in the league. Sure age plays a factor but the amount of time in the league is far more important.

Yes facts are facts. Kareem had a long drought on championships until Magic came along.

I get it. Championships don't mean much on an individual historical level now that the media darling is gracing us with his talents.

The whole point was LeBron shouldn't be mentioned with Johnson, Bird and Jordan. The only reason why Kobe gets a pass is because he has 5 rings. I think we all know he's not on their level. But LeBron isn't close.

[horseofcourse]

I am fairly knowlegeable on Cleveland sports and the simple facts are the 7 years LeBron played with the team are by far the 7 best successive years the franchise ever had, period, end of story. 4 50 plus win seasons, 2 60 plus win seasons, 6 winning seasons in 7 years, 5 straight playoff appearances, one finals appearance, 2 conference final appearances. What Cannon says is 100 percent correct. Self entitled douche behavior there, perhaps, yeah. The best players he played with in Cleveland were Larry Hughes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, and Mo Williams, and Delonte West. That ain't murderers row there. For the team to make two conference finals and one NBA finals was pretty darn good. Other than his massive ego which pretty much all superior athletes have, and his silly way he left the city, he ain't a terrible guy for the most part. Time will tell with the championships as he now has legit teammates and there are zero excuses at all. Skill wise, he matches up with anyone who's ever played the game. Jordan, Magic, Bird included. I'm not saying he's better than any of them or Kobe. I would say skill wise, he has more than Kobe. He can pass better than Jordan ever could, he's a gazillion times more athlletic than Magic or Bird. I'll give him 5 more years to see where he rates overall but I think the chance is there he can join those 3 or 4 mentioned.

[RockHardTen1985]

Lebron>Kobe all day.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I will say that LeBron will be considered one of the greats if he can win 2 championships. That's a big if though. He's got as much time on the court as Magic and Bird did when they were completing their championship runs. Wade is getting old too.

They have a 4 year window tops to hit at 50%. I don't see it happening.

So then I'm assuming that you also don't consider Oscar Robertson or Jerry West as all-time greats since they only have one title each right? West was almost 34 years old and in his 12th year. Robertson was 32 and in his 11th year. West didn't win until he got teamed with Chamberlain (who I will assume you think is an all-time great since he won two championships) and Robertson didn't get his until he teamed with Kareem.

Is this correct?

He's not an all-time great. I don't give a f.uck what you, Chuck, ESPN, God, Baby Jesus, etc say on the issue.



He's missing something. Comes off as a complete and total ******* and definitely won't be a successful businessman once his career his over.

Why are you comparing him to accomplished players? This f.ucking guy was called King James and The Chosen One for a reason. He hasn't delivered. No matter how many excuses you make for the guy. All he has done is win with bad teams and disappear when it matters.

I just hate the guy. The more you idiots try and prop him up the more I hate him. I see the fear in him. He's WEAK. All of the other guys you mentioned were men. Not adult babies.

He had no excuses last year. That was one of the biggest choke jobs in sports history. I'm going to pray that his stacked team years fail like they did with Malone and the Lakers, Barkley and the Rockets, etc. etc. Pi.ss on weak assholes winning titles by becoming betas.