Cigar

[RolloTomasi]

With regards to the "wasted 16 months", you're ignoring a few issues.

Cigar was of questionable soundness, at least early in his career. He didn't debut until Feb of his 3yo, ran poorly, and immediately went back to the sidelines, returning 3 months later for his maiden win.

Logistically, the switch to turf made sense for a couple of reasons. First, the pedigree. Palace Music was a Group 1 winner on turf. I presume the second dam, Argentinian Gold Sun, a multiple Group 1 winner, won her fair share of turf races, too.

In addition, most of the summer racing for 3yos in CA is turf-oriented. Note that turf rivals like Tossofthecoin, Nonproductiveasset, and Zignew, were also ultimately more accomplished on the dirt. There just aren't any main track goals in CA passed July for straight 3yos. I suppose Cigar could have been rushed into the Swaps, the last major stakes on dirt in CA for straight 3yos, but would he have held together? The move to turf allowed him to slowly progress through his allowance conditions rather than right into stakes company while possibly being "kinder" to him physically.

Also, I wouldn't say Cigar detested turf. Cigar handled the turf perfectly well, at least in CA. His one dull effort was the Hollywood Derby, which led to an 8 month layoff and a switch to Bill Mott on the East Coast.

[cmorioles]

While I agree with all this, it still is pretty dumb that a horse that displayed his talent on dirt was basically never tried on it again until the horse changed connections. Even then it seems it was done more on a whim than anything else. It was a last ditch effort. If I owned a horse after that maiden win, there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm not giving him many more chances on dirt.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

While I agree with all this, it still is pretty dumb that a horse that displayed his talent on dirt was basically never tried on it again until the horse changed connections. Even then it seems it was done more on a whim than anything else. It was a last ditch effort. If I owned a horse after that maiden win, there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm not giving him many more chances on dirt.

No doubt. But I think most of whatever blame needs to be assigned should fall towards Bill Mott. It seems like Cigar (and the maiden win) was lost in the shuffle of his massive stable. Allen Paulson probably had several horses with similar profiles as Cigar in Mott's barn (Geri and Dowty to name two), so it's not really a surprise he was slow in figuring him out.

Had Cigar stayed in one piece in CA, I would guess that Alex Hassinger wouldn't have missed an opportunity to run Cigar in the Strub series (just like many of the horses that were running in the same turf races as he was in the summer).

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

No doubt. But I think most of whatever blame needs to be assigned should fall towards Bill Mott. It seems like Cigar (and the maiden win) was lost in the shuffle of his massive stable. Allen Paulson probably had several horses with similar profiles as Cigar in Mott's barn (Geri and Dowty to name two), so it's not really a surprise he was slow in figuring him out.

Had Cigar stayed in one piece in CA, I would guess that Alex Hassinger wouldn't have missed an opportunity to run Cigar in the Strub series (just like many of the horses that were running in the same turf races as he was in the summer).

No doubt about it. I think a similar situation, though not exactly the same, arose with Frankel having Empire Maker, Peace Rules, and Ghostzapper. Ghostzapper had issues, but he was kind of forgotten and probably didn't achieve near what he could have as a 3 year old.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

No doubt about it. I think a similar situation, though not exactly the same, arose with Frankel having Empire Maker, Peace Rules, and Ghostzapper. Ghostzapper had issues, but he was kind of forgotten and probably didn't achieve near what he could have as a 3 year old.

Yep. And for the opposite situation, look no further than this year in Bob Baffert's stable. Bodemeister, and to a lesser extent, Fed Biz, would be horses that ideally would get all the time in the world to reach their peak for the summer and fall races.

Instead, they'll be running for $750k purses in the next few weeks and might not be around come July, never mind as 4yos.

[Indian Charlie]

Cigar didn't suck on turf.

What the problem was was that as he crossed the wire in his maiden win, I turned to my friend and told him he was going to win the Breeders Cup Turf, and I then proceeded to bet him in all of his California turf starts.

Had that not happened, he probably would have won champion turf male as a 3yo.

[KirisClown]

Cigar was so strong, fast and intimidating that his mere presence caused other horses to break down... Holy Bull was a victim of this..

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Cigar was so strong, fast and intimidating that his mere presence caused other horses to break down... Holy Bull was a victim of this..

Valuist at his worst.

[Calzone Lord]

I suppose racing on the grass is a little easier on a young horse ... and he did have a turf sire and some turf in the female family, although I never liked Seattle Slew's on turf.

Still. He proved to be plenty sound and sturdy. His maiden win on the dirt was a sneaky blockbuster win...and in a horrible 3yo crop and a BC Classic won by a 140-to-1 shot with grass breeding of his own ... I'm pretty sure Cigar could have at least done Tiznow like damage in the second half of his 3yo season.