Point Given

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Point Given was a monster 3yo and dominated a deep and talented 3yo divison. He had a tremendously impressive Preakness, Belmont, Haskell, and Travers sweep in his final 4 starts.

Gio Ponti was a good, consistant, healthy top class American turf horse for a couple of years. Built a very nice resume in our turf races -- but turf racing is an afterthought in this country.

First - I question the credentials of many of the horses Point Given defeated in his wins (against some small fields). Wins might've been impressive, but shouldn't you at least face open competition before you're crowned a HoFer, barring a Triple Crown sweep?

Second - because he did it on turf, it doesn't count as much?

Gio Ponti is everything we don't have enough of in this sport...wins over five seasons, always showed up (never beaten more than 4 lengths in his 17 losses, 2.5 lengths or less in 16 of them)...

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

First - I question the credentials of many of the horses Point Given defeated in his wins (against some small fields). Wins might've been impressive, but shouldn't you at least face open competition before you're crowned a HoFer, barring a Triple Crown sweep?

Second - because he did it on turf, it doesn't count as much?

Gio Ponti is everything we don't have enough of in this sport...wins over five seasons, always showed up (never beaten more than 4 lengths in his 17 losses, 2.5 lengths or less in 16 of them)...

When I first started posting here as PointGiven I was told that 2 lengths in a turf race is a ton. A lot different from 2 lengths in a dirt race. Multiple members said that.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

When I first started posting here as PointGiven I was told that 2 lengths in a turf race is a ton. A lot different from 2 lengths in a dirt race. Multiple members said that.

Congratulations on a great memory...

I thought the 7 G1 wins, and 7 G1 seconds ringed a bit truer to his performances, but maybe you didn't remember those like you remember being scolded. He made 17 of his final 18 starts in G1 company. Can't say that about ANY other horse, dirt, turf, synth...

As if it matters now, he's two absolutely atrocious rides from Ramon away from being the all-time money winner.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Congratulations on a great memory...

I thought the 7 G1 wins, and 7 G1 seconds ringed a bit truer to his performances, but maybe you didn't remember those like you remember being scolded. He made 17 of his final 18 starts in G1 company. Can't say that about ANY other horse, dirt, turf, synth...

As if it matters now, he's two absolutely atrocious rides from Ramon away from being the all-time money winner.

I know his resume Pat. I said hes admirable and consistent, thats where it stops for me. He was never brillant, and he was always facing not much. Cape Blanco beats his easily twice, easily. Anytime he faced a read horse Gio Ponti was running second.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Anytime he faced a read horse Gio Ponti was running second.

In his prime -- he did somehow beat Ventura by a nose at level weights going a mile when Ventura was a huge favorite and going good.

The Ventura upset was probably his finest performance.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

In his prime -- he did somehow beat Ventura by a nose at level weights going a mile when Ventura was a huge favorite and going good.

The Ventura upset was probably his finest performance.

That was in Cali. I remember that. She was around 6-5 and I think he was 3-1. Not a huge upset.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

That was in Cali. I remember that. She was around 6-5 and I think he was 3-1. Not a huge upset.

He was 5-to-1 and Ventura was 4-to-5.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

In his prime -- he did somehow beat Ventura by a nose at level weights going a mile when Ventura was a huge favorite and going good.

The Ventura upset was probably his finest performance.

GP should be in the hall of fame for making you 7500 at my expense!

Well, more like 6k adjusted, but still.

I forget how lucky you can be sometimes.

Back to the original point of this thread. Why was PG jumped up from 7500 to 20k?

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

GP should be in the hall of fame for making you 7500 at my expense!

Well, more like 6k adjusted, but still.

I forget how lucky you can be sometimes.

Back to the original point of this thread. Why was PG jumped up from 7500 to 20k?

I have no clue about the jump. Could it be just from Coil taking the Haskell?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

GP should be in the hall of fame for making you 7500 at my expense!

Well, more like 6k adjusted, but still.

I forget how lucky you can be sometimes.

Forgetting the contest --- I probably have made more than 6K just backwheeling Gio Ponti. He's kind of a favorite horse of mine.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

As if it matters now, he's two absolutely atrocious rides from Ramon away from being the all-time money winner.

Had he got a perfect trip in that $10 million purse race -- how do you know he would have passed that Gloria De Campeo horse that won? He hangs.

Gloria De Campeo was 2nd by like 12 lengths to Well Armed the prior year... on good old dirt.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Had he got a perfect trip in that $10 million purse race -- how do you know he would have passed that Gloria De Campeo horse that won? He hangs.

Gloria De Campeo was 2nd by like 12 lengths to Well Armed the prior year... on good old dirt.

Poorly judged pace in 2010 and worse, in 2011...when the winning move is being made outside of Ramon down the backside and he is strangling his horse back off a 53.4 half mile.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Poorly judged pace in 2010 and worse, in 2011...when the winning move is being made outside of Ramon down the backside and he is strangling his horse back off a 53.4 half mile.

I think the strangle hold is a product of Ramon doubting he can get 10f. Feeling he has to time that move just right.

[Alabama Stakes]

point given would have won the triple crown if not for Gary Stevens rushing him up into that blistering pace. he drowned most fields he faced and looked like he wasn't even trying while doing it.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

First - I question the credentials of many of the horses Point Given defeated in his wins (against some small fields). Wins might've been impressive, but shouldn't you at least face open competition before you're crowned a HoFer, barring a Triple Crown sweep?

He faced very good 3yo competiton -- races like the Preakness, Belmont, Haskell, and Travers are among the most prized of the Grade 1's by owners.

How many horses have completed such a sweep?

You can't fault him for getting hurt before having a chance to face older males... but sure, it's a hole in his resume.

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Second - because he did it on turf, it doesn't count as much?

Turf racing is an afterthought here. Most of the good turf sires aren't here -- our good horses often aren't even tried on turf until they've flopped on dirt. We breed and race primarily for dirt.

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Gio Ponti is everything we don't have enough of in this sport...wins over five seasons, always showed up (never beaten more than 4 lengths in his 17 losses, 2.5 lengths or less in 16 of them)...

His case would have been helped had he beat Court Vision the other day.

Maybe a hall of fame for hangers who stay healthy?

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

He faced very good 3yo competiton -- races like the Preakness, Belmont, Haskell, and Travers are among the most prized of the Grade 1's by owners.

I've done this before but here goes...

Crafty CT
I Love Silver
Palmiero
Cherokee Kim
Jamaican Rum
Bank Street
Indy Lead
Skip to the Stone
Silvertongue Fox
Gold Trader
Millennium Wind
Golden Ticket
Holiday Thunder
The Goo
AP Valentine
Congaree
Dollar Bill
Griffinite
Monarchos
Marciano
Bay Eagle
Percy Hope
Richly Blended
Mr. John
Invisible Ink
Buckle Down Ben
Thunder Blitz
Balto Star
Dr Greenfield
Touch Tone
Hero's Tribute
Burning Roma
E Dubai
Free of Love
Scorpion
Volponi
Hadrian's Wall
Harrisand

Quite the group. He was the best 3YO that year, but immortalized as one of the best all time, having faced them only at 3 (I included some of his 2YO competition too)...no thanks. I'll give you Congaree, Monarchos (just because of the Derby), Balto Star (for later turf success), and Volponi (for a race) as competition he faced when he won that would be considered "very good."

If turf racing is eschewed in this country for speed, fine, that's our own fault - but there are few horses racing in this decade that have been more successful and more consistent than Gio Ponti - consistency and success commensurate with a Hall of Fame, perhaps even one from an older era.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

If turf racing is eschewed in this country for speed, fine, that's our own fault - but there are few horses racing in this decade that have been more successful and more consistent than Gio Ponti - consistency and success commensurate with a Hall of Fame, perhaps even one from an older era.

Turf racing is eschewed because dirt racing is far more important.

Who is the last Horse of the Year to ever once run in American turf race? I think Charismatic in 1999... and he only tried turf as a last resort before they ran him for a claiming tag.

Royal Delta has turf in her pedigree -- think she's worth over $8 million if Mott tires to make a turf horse out of her? She hasn't even tried turf. A lot of the good ones never try turf.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Turf racing is eschewed because dirt racing is far more important.

Who is the last Horse of the Year to ever once run in American turf race? I think Charismatic in 1999... and he only tried turf as a last resort before they ran him for a claiming tag.

Royal Delta has turf in her pedigree -- think she's worth over $8 million if Mott tires to make a turf horse out of her? She hasn't even tried turf. A lot of the good ones never try turf.

Curlin