Frankel

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Personally, I couldn't care less if he comes over here. If he ran here, all I'd be doing is watching the race on tv, just as I have his other races so where he races makes no difference. Also, coming over here would not provide him with tougher competition. The horses he's facing there are far superior to what he'd face here. It would be like the Packers winning the Super Bowl but then having to go prove themselves against Michigan.

Who exactly has Frankel beaten? Zoffany, who almost tagged him at Ascot, ran last behind Gio Ponti in the Shadwell Mile recently. Excelebration and Dubawi Gold have placed behind Frankel multiple times this year. They're like his Washington Generals. He hasn't faced on Goldikova. He beat Canford Cliffs in the Sussex, but it was fairly evident that one was injured during the running of the race.

The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that. It would be nice, of course, but not necessary.

So we should just take it for granted that he would have won the Derby, the Eclipse, the BC Classic, etc. Good stuff.

Can you rate him ahead of a horse like Zarkava, who was able to beat Goldikova at a mile and win the Arc? Ahead of Sea the Stars, who was also versatile enough to win going short and long? My head says no but I do believe that he's good a miler as I've seen and just because they haven't tried something doesn't mean to me that he can't do it. Two races before winning the BC Classic, Ghostzapper had never won at 9f.

This is all an elaborate way of saying King Glorious would have beat Sunday Silence and Easy Goer at 10f, isn't it?

[King Glorious]

You are good at interpreting things the way you want to. There is no point in debating with that. I sure don't think I said he'd win those races but if that's how you take it, that's up to you. All I said is that I dont automatically say that he couldn't have.

And no, I don't think KG would have beaten them at 10f. I think at 9f he could have maybe done it if he was allowed an easy lead. I'm positive he could have done so at 8f. At 10f, if he was lone speed, I would have bet him and hoped for the best but not expected it. Don't know what this has to do with Frankel though.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

You are good at interpreting things the way you want to. There is no point in debating with that. I sure don't think I said he'd win those races but if that's how you take it, that's up to you. All I said is that I dont automatically say that he couldn't have.

Fair enough, though I don't think anyone else said he wouldn't have won those races, either. But I bet, unlike you, most would have liked to see him try.

How about the competition issue that you skipped over?

And no, I don't think KG would have beaten them at 10f. I think at 9f he could have maybe done it if he was allowed an easy lead. I'm positive he could have done so at 8f. At 10f, if he was lone speed, I would have bet him and hoped for the best but not expected it. Don't know what this has to do with Frankel though.

On a neutral racetrack King Glorious wouldn't have beaten either horse at 7f, never mind 8f. However, had he faced the other two together, he'd almost certainly take a lot of starch out of Sunday Silence, setting things up perfectly for Easy Goer.

He would have made a good rabbit.

[King Glorious]

Again, you are making incorrect assumptions. I would love to see him try. Don't know why you think me saying I don't NEED to see it is the same as not wanting to see it.

As for the competition, other than Goldikova, he's faced the best over there I think. That Zoffany almost beat him is as inconsequential as Lorenzoni beating Easy Goer, Onion beating Secretariat, Avenging Force beating KG, or Anaabas Creation almost beating Zenyatta. It's racing and strange things happen sometimes.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Again, you are making incorrect assumptions. I would love to see him try. Don't know why you think me saying I don't NEED to see it is the same as not wanting to see it.

Before you start talking in circles, I'll just repeat the most salient point:

I disagree with your assertion that a horse that thus far has only raced at 7f and 8f does not need to run further to prove he can stay 10-12f.

The whole point of racing horses competitively is to eliminate those "shoulda, coulda, woulda" hypotheticals. Hypotheticals that leave horses like King Glorious dangling in limbo as would-be all-time greats, when they're more likely to be no better than Jolie's Halo.

[King Glorious]

GAnd I disagree with your assertion that racing is about proving who can stay a long distance of ground. Just as with human runners, there are all kinds of different types. Usain Bolt doesn't have to prove he can run a marathon to still be one of the best sprinters in history. I think there is something to being the best in the world at what you do. You prefer the stayers and that's fine. But that doesn't make everyone that likes sprinters or milers wrong. Just different opinions. Michael Jordan couldn't do what Kareem Abdul-Jabbar could do and vice versa but that doesn't mean that they both weren't all-time greats.

He wouldn't need to beat Nathaniel at 10-12f any more than Nathaniel would need to beat him at 7-8f. Either of them doing so would ADD to their greatness but neither loses anything by not doing it.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

And I disagree with your assertion that racing is about proving who can stay a long distance of ground. You prefer the stayers and that's fine.

Of course, I said nothing of the sort.

And you certainly didn't make it clear in your original post that you were only stating that Frankel was a great miler. I suspect a change of tune, to be perfectly honest.

Nevertheless, I apologize if I misinterpreted:

The horse is a top class runner wherever he runs and whatever distance he runs at. I don't think that he has to run further to prove that.

...to mean that Frankel should be credited with stamina he hasn't displayed in a sanctioned race.

I guess the allusion to Ghostzapper threw me off.