The Real Championship Meet

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by welltakethat

A lot of good points made by 'parsix' First off, why run the Kelso and the Vosburgh on the same day when they draw the same horses. Second, why move two year old stakes to the week before you run the 'premier' two year old stakes of the fall. It dilutes all fields involved. Saratoga does the same thing with their Friday / Saturday stakes carded on the same conditions. Combined with the 50% maiden cardings with many firsters or state breds there is not much to enjoy from a betting perspective.

If you want to bet on 2-5's and 4-5's and tell your friends that you had ten bucks on Harve De Grace then that's a different type of player than where many would align themselves on this form i'd think. And if you want to crown champions (ie Zenyatta) for running on their home tracks against inferior fields then that's on those who decide. To me a win by Gio Ponti against that Shadwell Mile field is 10x more impressive than Harve De Grace because he had to beat 7 quality horses not one overmatched 3yo. And that's the shortest field of any of their stakes.

I'm not sure how anyone could wrip keeneland from a betting perspective. In terms of easy slam dunk handicapping I'm pretty sure that is what a 250 dollar pk4 across the 4 stakes at Belmont on Saturday says to me. Today there are some nice opportunities in that Jamaica field but last Saturday was unbettable on a race by race basis save pounding low priced favorites, I'm not sure how that could be argued.

No one is saying betting on Havre De Grace last weekend was fun and I can't imagine anyone in this thread did. But when there are so many options for connections to duck and dodge, for big, big money, what are racing organizations supposed to do?

Last Saturday was ruined because of the weather. Not really fair to compare it. And while my Saratoga meet was one of the worst ever, there were plenty of wagering opportunities everyday.

[welltakethat]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

No one is saying betting on Havre De Grace last weekend was fun and I can't imagine anyone in this thread did. But when there are so many options for connections to duck and dodge, for big, big money, what are racing organizations supposed to do?

I completely agree re too many options. I believe Steve had mentioned in an earlier post to me on a different issue having some sort of shared series across tracks where divisions are mapped out and campaigns are naturally built. I think without cooperation the sport will continue to spiral down. As you said, if the cotillion is going to run the same week as the beldame and the spinster is the next week, the only solution is to more actively recruit horses from other circuits or move the race. The 4 horse field run away to me does nothing to enhance Harve De Grace's resume, great win in the Woodward by her and she's a great horse. Better than Zenyatta to me. But if this was Europe sheda been in the Gold Cup instead and maybe the field for the Beldame would have been better.

As far as synthetic goes and turf horses benefiting and it being a crap shoot, I guess most on this thread with that view missed the Kentucky Derby this year. I could be misremembering but didn't Animal Kingdom prep on the poly. Oh yea and he won the derby. And ran big in the preakness.

Steve - Thanks for having Plonk on. Heard it on the replay this morning. He to me with his statistical analysis and trending is maybe the top handicapping mind in the public perview today and his Keeneland information that he posts on their site is tremendous.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by welltakethat

As far as synthetic goes and turf horses benefiting and it being a crap shoot, I guess most on this thread with that view missed the Kentucky Derby this year. I could be misremembering but didn't Animal Kingdom prep on the poly. Oh yea and he won the derby. And ran big in the preakness.

Quite an analogy. My guess is you weren't captain of the debate team.

[welltakethat]

Not sure what's wrong with the analogy. You had noted earlier in the thread synthetic surfaces made for a crapshoot and cheapening of those entered. While I actually agree with that point in terms of day to day racing, Animal Kingdom was a horse that ran ultra impressively on a synthetic surface and who could have been a champion had it not been for injury.

I'm not sure of your take on Zenyatta. I think she is overrated historically. But if you are a fan of hers surely the Keeneland argument would extend to synthetic surfaces in California that she ran on, all the time, for basically every race, against nothing fields.

Belmont did have a few stars, but stars in 4 horse fields are irrelevant because their brilliance is mitigated by the ease of trip. If synthetic minimizes a horses credentials so too must those field sizes. I think Uncle Mo and Harve De Grace are the two top horses in training right now in the US, but that doesnt make the racing at Keeneland less enjoyable and interesting and bettable, which in the end drives the sport.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by welltakethat

Not sure what's wrong with the analogy. You had noted earlier in the thread synthetic surfaces made for a crapshoot and cheapening of those entered. While I actually agree with that point in terms of day to day racing, Animal Kingdom was a horse that ran ultra impressively on a synthetic surface and who could have been a champion had it not been for injury.

I'm not sure of your take on Zenyatta. I think she is overrated historically. But if you are a fan of hers surely the Keeneland argument would extend to synthetic surfaces in California that she ran on, all the time, for basically every race, against nothing fields.

Belmont did have a few stars, but stars in 4 horse fields are irrelevant because their brilliance is mitigated by the ease of trip. If synthetic minimizes a horses credentials so too must those field sizes. I think Uncle Mo and Harve De Grace are the two top horses in training right now in the US, but that doesnt make the racing at Keeneland less enjoyable and interesting and bettable, which in the end drives the sport.

The first emboldened phrase is never what I said. The second I will guess is an intentional lie and the third is a misrepresentation of the truth.

The rest of the last paragraph has zero to do with the discussion at hand.

All in all? A D.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Quite an analogy. My guess is you weren't captain of the debate team.

Sharp post.

[tjfrab]

Blackthroatedwind- Regarding the title, as I said in a subsequent post, we'll have to see how it plays out in 4 weeks. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one who winds up being "full of sh t" - as you put it. If you would have preferred that I titled it Best Racing In The Country Right Now, then my mistake.

By the way, before you completely toss the poly form or kill their grading, you may want to remember there've been 2 derby winners the last 5 years coming off poly (one Keenland, one Turfway). When's the last time a Wood Memorial runner impacted the derby (which is the biggest race there is)- 2003.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

Blackthroatedwind- Regarding the title, as I said in a subsequent post, we'll have to see how it plays out in 4 weeks. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one who winds up being "full of sh t" - as you put it. If you would have preferred that I titled it Best Racing In The Country Right Now, then my mistake.

By the way, before you completely toss the poly form or kill their grading, you may want to remember there've been 2 derby winners the last 5 years coming off poly (one Keenland, one Turfway). When's the last time a Wood Memorial runner impacted the derby (which is the biggest race there is)- 2003.

No, it was an incorrect assertion when you wrote it, it remains one, it will be one in a month, a year, and forever. No amount of BS from you and your shadow will change that.

I do like you using Street Sense as a Derby winner coming off polytrack. Nice touch and goes well with the rest of your falsehoods. I guess you think Dominion is a superior horse to him. Considering the crap you have spewed here I wouldn't be surprised.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by tjfrab

Blackthroatedwind- Regarding the title, as I said in a subsequent post, we'll have to see how it plays out in 4 weeks. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one who winds up being "full of sh t" - as you put it. If you would have preferred that I titled it Best Racing In The Country Right Now, then my mistake.

By the way, before you completely toss the poly form or kill their grading, you may want to remember there've been 2 derby winners the last 5 years coming off poly (one Keenland, one Turfway). When's the last time a Wood Memorial runner impacted the derby (which is the biggest race there is)- 2003.

the last wood memorial to have an impact? you might want to look over the fave coming into some recent derbies. of course we had a few scratch out before they could run derby day, but the wood is certainly an impactful race, both derby day and after-unlike the blue grass for example.

[Cannon Shell]

The problem isnt just there are a lot of options, the fact that a handful of trainers control so many of the good horses forces them to split them up. If the horses were spread out among more trainers you would see more balanced fields. But for some reason many owners seem to think that only a few guys can train good horses and as such give those trainers a tremendous amount of leverage when selecting races. There are plenty of horses in NY that would run in stakes there had they not been trained by guys who already had another horse for the race.