Do any trainers not cheat?

[ELA]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Eric

Generally anyone getting an overage of Clen is an accident. Its usually a miscommunication between the trainer, assistant, or whomever gives the medication in regards to when the horse is going to run. Clen is a class 3 drug for a reason, because its not a big deal as far as horse performance goes.

There are a lot of other drugs used to jump a horses performance. My opinion is qualified for the record.

As a laymen, to a layperson's extent, I do understand about this -- "generally" -- and that is a key word here -- how a clenbuterol positive occurs. I agree with you and as such think that this may be people looking to kill a fly with a machine gun.

I am not trivializing this either. However, I think there is another problem here. Let's not name names here but I think when trainer X, Y, or Z -- and the trainer is one of these super-trainers, high % trainers, who is known for moving up horses, is the target of all the rumors and speculation, or one of the so called "drug trainers", etc. -- when one of these trainers comes up with a clenbuterol positive I think people look to hang them for it. Why? That's the dynamic of human nature.

Because they can't hang them for the "other thing" -- the "thing" that they haven't been caught at -- not yet at least. That is the "thing" that everyone thinks and knows in their heart they are guilty of. Well, personally, and this is JMVHO, I don't embrace that mindset. Now I am not defending these people -- hell, I have to race against them just like everyone else. But I just don't think you can convict a person, condemn them, ban them for life, etc. -- for something they haven't been caught doing. Yes, I know it's not that simple, but I do see that there.

It's kind of like Al Capone movie -- they could not catch or convict him of any of the real crimes that everyone knew he was gulity of. So what do they get him on -- tax evasion.

Eric

[kgar311]

Did anyone see Scott Lakes horses going down at Penn National at 2/5 last night in $2500 claimers. Bet against him for the next month. They werent even hitting the board.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

If you want this type of thing to stop make it a $10,000 fine the first time and double it each positive after that ($20k, $40k, $80k, $160k, $320k, etc...). Never suspend, just don't allow any horses from that trainer until his fines are paid. I would think this latest Lake positive would have cost him about $1M. He can pay it and race or quit. It would put the real accountability on the trainer.

The suspensions for X days don't mean anything to a trainer, because the top assistant takes over for the 30 days and enters in his name and nothing changes, but knowing the next Clen positive cost $1M or loss of trainers license will fix the problem.

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

If you want this type of thing to stop make it a $10,000 fine the first time and double it each positive after that ($20k, $40k, $80k, $160k, $320k, etc...). Never suspend, just don't allow any horses from that trainer until his fines are paid. I would think this latest Lake positive would have cost him about $1M. He can pay it and race or quit. It would put the real accountability on the trainer.

The suspensions for X days don't mean anything to a trainer, because the top assistant takes over for the 30 days and enters in his name and nothing changes, but knowing the next Clen positive cost $1M or loss of trainers license will fix the problem.

Better yet I think the first fine should be eleventy billion dollars and the trainer should be criminally charged with animal abuse and aiding and abetting terrorists because everyone knows the terrorists made him cheat.

[The Bid]

It is too easy to get a Clen positive to have fines like that. In most cases the Clen is an honest mistake. In a large barn it is very easy to get a horse lost in the shuffle and over medicate them, especially when its given by assistant trainers and grooms. Im not sure if you realize this, but usually clen is given by a trainers assistant, not a vet, not a vets assistant. They leave you the clen, and expect it to be handled properly. It would be impossible for X trainer to treat 250 horses with clen, that is where the mistakes come in, and that is where the overages manifest. Do you think a trainer should have a million dollar fine because of an honest mistake made by someone with a 5th grade education, making 300 dollars per week? I dont. I understand a Clen positive, I do not understand any caine positive, its not possible to make that mistake because they are Iv drugs.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

I own horses. I know mistakes happen. But let's be honest here, positives can be avoided. And if it cost the trainer more, than more attention would be paid to the medications given to horses. The real issue here in my mind is exactly stated at the top of the thread. Any horse who wins and tests positive stole money from the patrons/bettors.

This game is struggling enough to need slots in most states to keep it running. This is not the heyday of horseracing. The sport needs to do everything in its power to not alienate the fans. I think most of us take the ups and downs and grey areas of racing as the way it works. But the occasional patron/bettor may never bet again if a horse who beat him is positive. He/she would say it is fixed.

There is enough shady things that go on a a track (fixes, incorrectly reported workouts, running horses into shape, etc...) to not tackle one that can be easily monitored and avoided. If you are a trainer who is so sloppy as to not care about a huge fine, then pay it. Otherwise, pay more attention to the medications given to your horses or be out of the game. There is no shortage of owners or aspiring trainers.

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

I own horses. I know mistakes happen. But let's be honest here, positives can be avoided. And if it cost the trainer more, than more attention would be paid to the medications given to horses. The real issue here in my mind is exactly stated at the top of the thread. Any horse who wins and tests positive stole money from the patrons/bettors.

That is simply not true. Not all medications enhance the performance of the horse.

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

This game is struggling enough to need slots in most states to keep it running. This is not the heyday of horseracing. The sport needs to do everything in its power to not alienate the fans. I think most of us take the ups and downs and grey areas of racing as the way it works. But the occasional patron/bettor may never bet again if a horse who beat him is positive. He/she would say it is fixed.

Then that is a fan the game really doesn't need. It's far more damaging to the game to have a bunch of degenerates at the track vocally complaining about how trainers are juicin horses and jockeys pull up horses, etc. etc. I witness this everytime I go to the track. Any track.

If the racing fan were serious about cleaning up the game then surely the first place to start would be complaining to race management to get the grounds security to actually do some work and boot out the degenerates who come to the track and bet $1 exacta boxes with their welfare check and get on their soapbox about what's wrong with the game when their $6 will pay doesn't come through.

Originally Posted by Thoroughbred Fan

There is enough shady things that go on a a track (fixes, incorrectly reported workouts, running horses into shape, etc...) to not tackle one that can be easily monitored and avoided. If you are a trainer who is so sloppy as to not care about a huge fine, then pay it. Otherwise, pay more attention to the medications given to your horses or be out of the game. There is no shortage of owners or aspiring trainers.

Yeah because these trainers who are fined under your new system aren't going to trickle the fines to the owners. Then the average joe owners will start leaving the game in higher numbers than they are now and you'll look up and there will be nothing left.

It's difficult to impose these strict fines and suspensions when the testing isn't fullproof and EPO testing isn't in the equation.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

That is simply not true. Not all medications enhance the performance of the horse.

It is not about the performance enhancement. It is about it not being legal. Why is it illegal? The rules are the rules, regardless of why they are the rules.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Then that is a fan the game really doesn't need. It's far more damaging to the game to have a bunch of degenerates at the track vocally complaining about how trainers are juicin horses and jockeys pull up horses, etc. etc. I witness this everytime I go to the track. Any track.

While I'll agree there are some characters the track could probably do without. The game needs all the fans it can get. When you go to a track that is at capacity, then you can start to discriminate against the patrons.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

If the racing fan were serious about cleaning up the game then surely the first place to start would be complaining to race management to get the grounds security to actually do some work and boot out the degenerates who come to the track and bet $1 exacta boxes with their welfare check and get on their soapbox about what's wrong with the game when their $6 will pay doesn't come through.

Well, I don't know about you, but I appreciate every dollar that makes it in the pools. I might like to suggest a $20 minimum window to filter some of these folks out of my line, but kick them out never.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Yeah because these trainers who are fined under your new system aren't going to trickle the fines to the owners. Then the average joe owners will start leaving the game in higher numbers than they are now and you'll look up and there will be nothing left.

Most average joe owners aren't with the kinds of $$$ trainers you're mentioning anyway. The kind who could pass off the increase to their owners. They are with trainers who would be forced to be more careful or be out of the game. If the trainer is top trainer and his well-to-do clients are willing to help eat his fines then that is fine. But the fines won't force out the average joe owner, just the sloppy trainer.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

It's difficult to impose these strict fines and suspensions when the testing isn't fullproof and EPO testing isn't in the equation.

That is ruled on by a panel of folks who look at all the evidence. And what they decide is the final decision. Live with it. Its a free country so complain if you like, but live with it.