Del Mar opens Wed. Racing hurting all over the place

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Whoever decided it would be a better idea to fight the Indians as opposed to joining them should take the majority of the blame.

Would that have ever been passed by the legislature?

I assume your post means you believe this to be a purse issue?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Would that have ever been passed by the legislature?

I assume your post means you believe this to be a purse issue?

Seems like anything the Indians want, they get.

Well had the purses been as high as they could have been, there probably would not have been a owner exodus and surely the 2% takeout increase would have never been implemented.

Is it a purse issue? Of course. Last year there were races at Penn National that were running for the same money or more money as the same class at Hollywood Park. I know a lot of KY breeders who send their horses where the money is highest. They have good horses and a steady supply of them. They now run in NY, Monmouth and Woodbine as opposed to CA. There are several traditionally CA based owners that fill the barns of guys like Phil Aristone and others at Parx.

Between low purses, polytrack, Stronach's issues, the CHRB's ineptness and general malaise the racing product has slipped quite a bit and handle has followed. Had they played nice with the Indians and came up with some sort of agreement years ago not only would have the monetary situation been better the atmosphere of desperation that now exists probably wouldn't have reached the levels that it is now at. Sure the general economic downturn would have still hurt somewhat but the timing in which it hit seems to simply accelerated the downward trend CA racing was already in.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Seems like anything the Indians want, they get.

Well had the purses been as high as they could have been, there probably would not have been a owner exodus and surely the 2% takeout increase would have never been implemented.

Is it a purse issue? Of course. Last year there were races at Penn National that were running for the same money or more money as the same class at Hollywood Park. I know a lot of KY breeders who send their horses where the money is highest. They have good horses and a steady supply of them. They now run in NY, Monmouth and Woodbine as opposed to CA. There are several traditionally CA based owners that fill the barns of guys like Phil Aristone and others at Parx.

Between low purses, polytrack, Stronach's issues, the CHRB's ineptness and general malaise the racing product has slipped quite a bit and handle has followed. Had they played nice with the Indians and came up with some sort of agreement years ago not only would have the monetary situation been better the atmosphere of desperation that now exists probably wouldn't have reached the levels that it is now at. Sure the general economic downturn would have still hurt somewhat but the timing in which it hit seems to simply accelerated the downward trend CA racing was already in.

The only segment this can be argued is the low level claiming races from 10k to 25k. The horses at this level have been raided by the Indian casino sponsered tracks. No doubt they could not keep the horses given the purse competition.

But losing those, did that really matter. Is that the market California is after to fill their races? They used to run 2 of those a day.

Nope, not buying that argument.

When Mdn specials are going for 60k and you are getting 5 horses I think you got other issues that are a bigger problem.

Its two fold, regulation by the State has made it very expensive to race horses, to the point that 60k maidens still make it hard. Tax codes have also made it harder to make it.

The other issue is the guy who had a small to medium sized business and maybe had 5-10 decent bred horses has all but vanished because his business has been squeezed out by over regulation and taxation by the state. I really think purses have had nothing to do with this, 100k maidens, maybe?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

The only segment this can be argued is the low level claiming races from 10k to 25k. The horses at this level have been raided by the Indian casino sponsered tracks. No doubt they could not keep the horses given the purse competition.

But losing those, did that really matter. Is that the market California is after to fill their races? They used to run 2 of those a day.

Nope, not buying that argument.

When Mdn specials are going for 60k and you are getting 5 horses I think you got other issues that are a bigger problem.

Its two fold, regulation by the State has made it very expensive to race horses, to the point that 60k maidens still make it hard. Tax codes have also made it harder to make it.

The other issue is the guy who had a small to medium sized business and maybe had 5-10 decent bred horses has all but vanished because his business has been squeezed out by over regulation and taxation by the state. I really think purses have had nothing to do with this, 100k maidens, maybe?

While some of what you say is true about the over regulation and taxation is true how in the world can you say that it isnt about purses or that only cheap claimer were effected? Your argument contradicts itself. Did you miss the entire takeout raising issue and its causes?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While some of what you say is true about the over regulation and taxation is true how in the world can you say that it isnt about purses or that only cheap claimer were effected? Your argument contradicts itself. Did you miss the entire takeout raising issue and its causes?

If they run for 65k mdn at saratoga, and they run a 60k mdn at del mar, how is it a purse issue?

If the track was built on 8k to 25k claimers then your right, its a purse issues.

Largely though the mdn, alw, high level claiming, and stake purses are competitive or better then 90% of the track, why would they struggle to fill more than say Turf Paradise?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

If they run for 65k mdn at saratoga, and they run a 60k mdn at del mar, how is it a purse issue?

If the track was built on 8k to 25k claimers then your right, its a purse issues.

Largely though the mdn, alw, high level claiming, and stake purses are competitive or better then 90% of the track, why would they struggle to fill more than say Turf Paradise?

You are making an after the fact argument. First off any track isnt built on any particular type of horses. There are a lot more cheap races during the weekday cards at all tracks even Del Mar than not. I guess you missed the meets where the purses for maidens were far shy of 60k. Don't forget too that the current 60k purse comes with fewer racing days/opportunities and with the increased takeout. When you take into consideration that the expenses for owners and trainers are far greater on average in CA than everywhere else it just makes it that much harder.

The other factor is that they are on an island where it costs a lot of money just to get there. With the rise of higher purses at places like Woodbine Monmouth, Delaware and even Parx and Penn owners sent their horses east with most places offering similar or better money and cheaper expenses to go along with more opportunity.

And then there was polytrack...

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Did you miss the entire takeout raising issue and its causes?

No I did not, as expected they raised purses even more with nothing to show, how has that helped field sizes...again if its a purse issue shouldn't the raise have seen a significant bump in field sizes?

There is just about no raise in purses that can overcome Ca economic issues. They are the next Michigan.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

No I did not, as expected they raised purses even more with nothing to show, how has that helped field sizes...again if its a purse issue shouldn't the raise have seen a significant bump in field sizes?

There is just about no raise in purses that can overcome Ca economic issues. They are the next Michigan.

The bump in purses basically helped them keep pace when they need to greatly exceed. There are a lot of disadvantages to being in CA. When the money is equal but pretty much everything else favors the Eastern tracks it isnt a big surprise that there wasnt owners/trainer flocking to CA. When you consider that nationwide there is fall off in ownership the fact is that the ones left have settled into where they want to be and CA may never get them back

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The bump in purses basically helped them keep pace when they need to greatly exceed. There are a lot of disadvantages to being in CA. When the money is equal but pretty much everything else favors the Eastern tracks it isnt a big surprise that there wasnt owners/trainer flocking to CA. When you consider that nationwide there is fall off in ownership the fact is that the ones left have settled into where they want to be and CA may never get them back

This.

While the bumbling stumbling CHRB has not made great decisions they hardly are any worse than the rest of the country, its forces outside of racing to me that have ruined California racing............ IMO California is ruined, they just happen to be located there.

If they need to greatly exceed Saratoga and say Keeneland in purse structure, so say they need 80k mdns and 125k alw's well they are dead.