Is it just me or is Godolphin winning everything

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

It was a great race. But to be beat elders in the BCC is another story. I personally think Flower Alley will slay all comers when he returns and I think the late comeback is by design. I think he wins the Whitney, the JCGC, and the BCC. His talent is immense, and his BCC as a 3yo against older truly unappreciated.

What is so immense about Flower Alley's talent? Where is his monsterous performance?

Don't get me wrong, he is a nice horse, and ran very well last year, but he hardly strikes me as a world beater. And, sorry, I find his late start troubling, and wonder what the true story may be. We already saw one disasterous return by one of that barn's stars, Indian Vale, and let's face it, the connections have not had an abundance of success in keeping horses together for long periods of time.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What is so immense about Flower Alley's talent? Where is his monsterous performance?

Don't get me wrong, he is a nice horse, and ran very well last year, but he hardly strikes me as a world beater. And, sorry, I find his late start troubling, and wonder what the true story may be. We already saw one disasterous return by one of that barn's stars, Indian Vale, and let's face it, the connections have not had an abundance of success in keeping horses together for long periods of time.

Well his Travers was awesome as was his BCC. I hear he had a breathing problem in the JCGC and tend to believe it after his BCC. I thinkhis BCC performance would have won 85% of BCC's ever run. And I think that they set a campaign designed for HOY. Melnyk has too much cash to race one like that who isn't right.

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm not sure how you can describe his Traver's as " awesome ". He stalked a horse that was going 1 1/4 miles off a four month layoff and beat Roman Ruler who couldn't get 1 1/4 on the back of a flatbed ( and isn't that terrific anyway ).

I happen to think last year's BC Classic was at best an ordinary group. Saint Liam was a fairly nice horse who was questionable at 1 1/4, and considering how well Suave ran while contesting the pace I have a lot of trouble projecting Flower Alley's performance as anything particularly special.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm not sure how you can describe his Traver's as " awesome ". He stalked a horse that was going 1 1/4 miles off a four month layoff and beat Roman Ruler who couldn't get 1 1/4 on the back of a flatbed ( and isn't that terrific anyway ).

I happen to think last year's BC Classic was at best an ordinary group. Saint Liam was a fairly nice horse who was questionable at 1 1/4, and considering how well Suave ran while contesting the pace I have a lot of trouble projecting Flower Alley's performance as anything particularly special.

I don't see any St Liams this year though. Is FA at Ghostzapper level? No. But I think this older group is subpar.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't see any St Liams this year though. Is FA at Ghostzapper level? No. But I think this older group is subpar.

I don't disagree, but my argument is more with your overall appraisal of Flower Alley, who I do NOT believe would have won 85% of the BC Classics with his performance there last fall. We have simply become accustomed recently to relatively mediocre performances from 3YOs, or " injury " shortened careers, but as far as I'm concerned Flower Alley would have gotten his head handed to him by the likes of Silver Charm, Touch Gold, Skip Away and Point Given just to name a few.

I will also believe he is back at a top level when I actually see it. I will not accept on faith that a horse that isn't ready to appear in June of his 4YO year is just being brought along slowly. There has to be a story and the only question is how serious it is.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't disagree, but my argument is more with your overall appraisal of Flower Alley, who I do NOT believe would have won 85% of the BC Classics with his performance there last fall. We have simply become accustomed recently to relatively mediocre performances from 3YOs, or " injury " shortened careers, but as far as I'm concerned Flower Alley would have gotten his head handed to him by the likes of Silver Charm, Touch Gold, Skip Away and Point Given just to name a few.

I will also believe he is back at a top level when I actually see it. I will not accept on faith that a horse that isn't ready to appear in June of his 4YO year is just being brought along slowly. There has to be a story and the only question is how serious it is.

I'm not questioning that he had a setback. But a horse by Distorted Humor who has won a grade one would have been sent to stud had it been a career lessening injury. hes just too valuable and the owner/trainer are just too smart.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I'm not questioning that he had a setback. But a horse by Distorted Humor who has won a grade one would have been sent to stud had it been a career lessening injury. hes just too valuable and the owner/trainer are just too smart.

Anything that MAY have gone wrong happened too late for him to go to stud this year so my guess is they are attempting to bring him back. I also believe there is a good chance they will but I also wonder just how effective he will be.

I am sure should there be anything seriously wrong they will not race him.

[Seattleallstar]

"Coolmore" has already done well, Michael Tabor and Derrick Smith have done very well.

Thunder Gulch
Left Bank
Adieu
Jburg

just to name a few

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

"Coolmore" has already done well, Michael Tabor and Derrick Smith have done very well.

Thunder Gulch
Left Bank
Adieu
Jburg

just to name a few

Adieu?

I think the others on that list just vomited seeing her included among them.

By they way, yes they have done well here, but I think the point was that those connections run a substantial majority of their best horses in Europe. If they raced them in the US instead I am quite sure they would be FAR more successful.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Adieu?

I think the others on that list just vomited seeing her included among them.

By they way, yes they have done well here, but I think the point was that those connections run a substantial majority of their best horses in Europe. If they raced them in the US instead I am quite sure they would be FAR more successful.

DING DING DING!! Rack Him as Rome would say. Post of the day.

[liamc7]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

"Coolmore" has already done well, Michael Tabor and Derrick Smith have done very well.

Thunder Gulch
Left Bank
Adieu
Jburg

just to name a few

Because you see Tabor & Smiths names more frequently in American racing the main people behind Coolmore are John and Susan Magnier,Mrs Magnier is the daughter of the first maestro of Ballydoyle Vincent OBrien who actually trained the last English triple crown winner Nijinsky back in the early 70s.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Well his Travers was awesome as was his BCC. I hear he had a breathing problem in the JCGC and tend to believe it after his BCC. I thinkhis BCC performance would have won 85% of BCC's ever run. And I think that they set a campaign designed for HOY. Melnyk has too much cash to race one like that who isn't right.

85%??...Wow...doubt it...he wasn't even close to the best of his generation..Afleet Alex would have urinated on him (excuse my cajun)..he blossomed at year's end and finished nicely, but I don't give him that much credit..

I know Discreet Cat and Bernardini are more talented than Flower Alley....we'll see

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

85%??...Wow...doubt it...he wasn't even close to the best of his generation..Afleet Alex would have urinated on him (excuse my cajun)..he blossomed at year's end and finished nicely, but I don't give him that much credit..

I know Discreet Cat and Bernardini are more talented than Flower Alley....we'll see

I'd actually like to see Discreet Cat run more than one every 6 months, but thats just a personal perference.

[brockguy]

demi defo knows his stuff, gets coolmore on occasions multiple champs a year at decent prices, better than ferguson at his job. add to that, godolphin like to open their checkbook every year and try to purchase horses in training after good or average seasons. coolmore rarely do but are more successful at that too.

Originally Posted by brockguy

demi defo knows his stuff, gets coolmore on occasions multiple champs a year at decent prices, better than ferguson at his job. add to that, godolphin like to open their checkbook every year and try to purchase horses in training after good or average seasons. coolmore rarely do but are more successful at that too.

Demi has been told to me by several people with a good eye themselves to be the most amazing judge of horseflesh alive, and maybe ever.

[blackthroatedwind]

Doesn't the Godolphin feud with Coolmore stem from what they perceive to be questionable business ethics involving the sales? Perhaps it also has to do with their aggressive breeding of their top stallions to in excess of 250 mares worldwide.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Demi has been told to me by several people with a good eye themselves to be the most amazing judge of horseflesh alive, and maybe ever.

I can't argue that...

Originally Posted by oracle80

I'd actually like to see Discreet Cat run more than one every 6 months, but thats just a personal perference.

Me too, but that means that he would be running more regularly than Flower Alley has this year, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Me too, but that means that he would be running more regularly than Flower Alley has this year, wouldn't it?

He raced a lot last year. Like i said, in heads up match gimme pletcher agaisnt suroor at 1-9. I'll lay it.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

85%??...Wow...doubt it...he wasn't even close to the best of his generation..Afleet Alex would have urinated on him (excuse my cajun)..he blossomed at year's end and finished nicely, but I don't give him that much credit..

I know Discreet Cat and Bernardini are more talented than Flower Alley....we'll see

Based on speed figures, and since Afleet Alex didn't race after the Belmont that is all we have, it is far from clear that Afleet Alex was better than the Flower Alley we saw in Saratoga and the BC. While I tend to agree that had he stayed healthy, and logically progressed, Afleet Alex would have been the better of the two, but at best that margin would have been minimal.

Don't even bother attempting to use the Derby as an example, as not only did Flower Alley improve immensely off his Derby performance, he also ran exceptionally well in that race. He was forced to make a suicidal premature move when Chavez sent him into a drive on the backstretch and then got caught behind the tiring Spanish Chesnut. His performance was clearly an indication of good things to come.