If you like Sun King in the Classic...

Pointg5 · #1 10-24-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

One thing about him that hasn't changed though is that he's STILL not a grade one winner. What has happened is that he's not gotten better but all of the good horses that were running with him last year are retired or injured so he's just facing weaker so he's looking better.

When they invent a time machine to bring back those other good horses, let me know...

King Glorious · #2 10-24-2006, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pointg5

When they invent a time machine to bring back those other good horses, let me know...

They won't need to. There are some better ones that he'll be facing in the Classic, namely Bernardini, Lava Man, and George Washington. I say Sun King gets nowhere close to them at the finish. He's one of the most overrated horses in training. Never won a grade one race. Only stakes wins this year are in sprints and all of a sudden, he's a serious contender in the world's best 10f race? Please.

Pointg5 · #3 10-24-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

They won't need to. There are some better ones that he'll be facing in the Classic, namely Bernardini, Lava Man, and George Washington. I say Sun King gets nowhere close to them at the finish. He's one of the most overrated horses in training. Never won a grade one race. Only stakes wins this year are in sprints and all of a sudden, he's a serious contender in the world's best 10f race? Please.

That's where you are showing your obvious bias against him, you are saying that he won't be running against the horses from last year to say he hasn't improved, what's that got to do with who he's run against this year? Then you switch your arguement by pointing out the horses he will face this year...I happen to like Sun King, I don't think he will win, but a 2nd or 3rd wouldn't surprise me, he ran a nice Met Mile and his race against Invasior was pretty good. Think critically, not with a bias towards a horse...I am no fan of Bernardini, but I acknowledge his imense talent...

blackthroatedwind · #4 10-24-2006, 01:35 PM

KG is just mad they aren't running Sun King in the BC Steeplechase this coming weekend.

Tracy Farmer really needs to start thinking outside the box!

King Glorious · #5 10-24-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pointg5

That's where you are showing your obvious bias against him, you are saying that he won't be running against the horses from last year to say he hasn't improved, what's that got to do with who he's run against this year? Then you switch your arguement by pointing out the horses he will face this year...I happen to like Sun King, I don't think he will win, but a 2nd or 3rd wouldn't surprise me, he ran a nice Met Mile and his race against Invasior was pretty good. Think critically, not with a bias towards a horse...I am no fan of Bernardini, but I acknowledge his imense talent...

I'm saying that the horses he's been facing thus far this year are inferior to what he was facing last year so that's why he's been looking better but in the Classic, he's going to face better horses than he's ever faced and will get his head handed to him yet again. He looks good against bad horses, bad against good ones. I would be shocked if he finishes in the top half of the field. I think Bernadini, Lava Man, George Washington, David Junior, Brother Derek, Premium Tap, Invasor, and Perfect Drift will all finish ahead of him.

slotdirt · #6 10-24-2006, 01:47 PM

I missed that point on Sun King's breeding. His sire, obviously, was pretty good at 10f, and Summer Squall was no slouch at either 10f or the mile and three sixteenths distance. To say Sun King wasn't bred to go long is downright preposterous.

Scav · #7 10-24-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I missed that point on Sun King's breeding. His sire, obviously, was pretty good at 10f, and Summer Squall was no slouch at either 10f or the mile and three sixteenths distance. To say Sun King wasn't bred to go long is downright preposterous.

Supposedly horses get stamina from their mare side, which I have never really understood how the mare can throw stamina, but I am guessing this is why he is saying this, as if i recall, Clever Trick is there somewhere

#8 10-24-2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scav

Supposedly horses get stamina from their mare side, which I have never really understood how the mare can throw stamina, but I am guessing this is why he is saying this, as if i recall, Clever Trick is there somewhere

There is a very clear reason why the mare MIGHT infer stamina to offspring. If you want to know Scavs, PM me. But be ready for a bit of stuff about exercise physiology, cells and genetics. It is actually quite interesting I think. It makes perfect biological sense to me.

But I still would rather watch a horse actually prove stamina on the track rather than looking a pedigrees.

blackthroatedwind · #9 10-24-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'm saying that the horses he's been facing thus far this year are inferior to what he was facing last year so that's why he's been looking better but in the Classic, he's going to face better horses than he's ever faced and will get his head handed to him yet again. He looks good against bad horses, bad against good ones. I would be shocked if he finishes in the top half of the field. I think Bernadini, Lava Man, George Washington, David Junior, Brother Derek, Premium Tap, Invasor, and Perfect Drift will all finish ahead of him.

Huh? He lost the Whitney by a head to Invasor who is clearly better than virtually every horse he faced last year.

I'm not singing his praises for this race, though I think he has a reasonable chance to get a piece, but you are not making logical sense ( again ).

King Glorious · #10 10-24-2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Huh? He lost the Whitney by a head to Invasor who is clearly better than virtually every horse he faced last year.

I'm not singing his praises for this race, though I think he has a reasonable chance to get a piece, but you are not making logical sense ( again ).

U think Invasor is clearly better than every horse he faced last year. I don't. Invasor has won some nice races this year but he's beaten absolutely nothing at all. I think he's beaten even less than Bernardini and Discreet Cat have. It's going to take more than beating Wanderin Boy and We Can Seek and Andromeda's Hero for me to get on the Invasor wagon. I was trying my best to give him his due but then when he went out and barely could hold off Sun King, the only decent horse he's faced this year, I knew Invasor was a fraud. U say Sun King's got a reasonable chance to get a piece because of how well he ran against Invasor? I say neither one of them gets within sniffing distance of the first four at the wire.

slotdirt · #11 10-24-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

U think Invasor is clearly better than every horse he faced last year. I don't. Invasor has won some nice races this year but he's beaten absolutely nothing at all. I think he's beaten even less than Bernardini and Discreet Cat have. It's going to take more than beating Wanderin Boy and We Can Seek and Andromeda's Hero for me to get on the Invasor wagon. I was trying my best to give him his due but then when he went out and barely could hold off Sun King, the only decent horse he's faced this year, I knew Invasor was a fraud. U say Sun King's got a reasonable chance to get a piece because of how well he ran against Invasor? I say neither one of them gets within sniffing distance of the first four at the wire.

I'm sorry, are you talking about Invasor or Bernardini? Wanderin Boy was a less than apt foil for both of these guys in GI races this year.

blackthroatedwind · #12 10-24-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

U think Invasor is clearly better than every horse he faced last year. I don't. Invasor has won some nice races this year but he's beaten absolutely nothing at all. I think he's beaten even less than Bernardini and Discreet Cat have. It's going to take more than beating Wanderin Boy and We Can Seek and Andromeda's Hero for me to get on the Invasor wagon. I was trying my best to give him his due but then when he went out and barely could hold off Sun King, the only decent horse he's faced this year, I knew Invasor was a fraud. U say Sun King's got a reasonable chance to get a piece because of how well he ran against Invasor? I say neither one of them gets within sniffing distance of the first four at the wire.

I can't wait for your book " Horse Racing on Acid ".

First of all, I never said he is " clearly better than every horse he faced last year ". Suggesting his competition has been less than that of Discreet Cat's is either flat out wrong and indefensible or some sort of trick comment on your part because of the Dubai race. And, to judge the ability of horses simply by whom they faced is a poor method of handicapping, and one I will assume you are using in some desperate attempt to qualify your previous bad opinions.

The reality is that horses only have to perform better than their competition on a given day to be successful and other than Bernardini the competition in the BC Classic this year does not look substantially better than Sun King...at least on paper. Sun King's biggest possible problem may well be the distance, as it appears his better races are shorter. On the other hand, he is clearly better this year than last, and his rating style seems to have improved his performance.

I do love your posts though. Can't wait for the book!

ArlJim78 · #13 10-24-2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

U think Invasor is clearly better than every horse he faced last year. I don't. Invasor has won some nice races this year but he's beaten absolutely nothing at all. I think he's beaten even less than Bernardini and Discreet Cat have. It's going to take more than beating Wanderin Boy and We Can Seek and Andromeda's Hero for me to get on the Invasor wagon. I was trying my best to give him his due but then when he went out and barely could hold off Sun King, the only decent horse he's faced this year, I knew Invasor was a fraud. U say Sun King's got a reasonable chance to get a piece because of how well he ran against Invasor? I say neither one of them gets within sniffing distance of the first four at the wire.

you've got Invasor pegged as a fraud??!! Wow! I think you've really underestimated him. Essentially I see him as the only realy threat to Bernardini. I think all of the other horses mentioned require several things to go their way in order to win. Invasor imo matches up fairly close to Bernardini on the figures I use. I've posted on this before. Much will depend on the shape of the race and how Bernardini handles it

Don't think you can point to one race, winning by a nose over Sun King, and conclude Invasor is a fraud. Keep this in mind about the Whitney before you draw too many conclusions, 1) It was far and away Sun Kings best performance of his life at 9F, and 2) Invasor stumbled at the start and it was basically right in line figurewise with his other starts, and 3) He seems to me to be better at longer distances.

slotdirt · #14 10-25-2006, 10:23 AM

Breeding, schmeeding. Since when has breeding meant much more than a nickel in so far as handicapping a race goes? I figured the results of the last six or seven Kentucky Derbies would show folks the value of breeding as a predictive measure is pretty much zero. Now we're being told a four year old who has run this race as a 3YO and had a pretty good season against some really tough horses can't get 10f because.....his broodmare sire is Clever Trick? Please. Motherf-ing please.