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Old 04-20-2011, 02:09 AM
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dalakhani dalakhani is offline
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Originally Posted by Cannon Shell View Post
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...PERDiem-110330

Don't blame Melo, New York -- blame yourselves.

You were the ones who built him up, not him. Since coming to New York, all he's done is exactly what he did in Denver. He scores in the mid-20s with middling efficiency, plays token defense, and helps on the boards. That's what he is. There is nothing disappointing or upsetting about it at all, except to the people who built him up as an antidote to LeBron James and Kobe Bryant.

All that stuff about his being a top-10 player, a superstar? Could we maybe try to get some evidence first? Let's start with the digits. Anthony's stats fully state, if not overstate, his value -- there's no hidden defensive value or other warm/fuzzy stuff to explore here. Nonetheless, he has never finished in the top 10 in the league in player efficiency rating. Not once. In 2009-10 he posted a career high in PER, and it placed him 13th, right in front of former Knicks immortal David Lee.

Giving up an arm and a leg for such a player never made sense, and we're seeing the results now. The Knicks were basically an average team before the Anthony trade -- 28-26, with an average scoring margin at almost exactly break-even (just 0.4 points per game on the plus side).

And after the Carmelo Anthony trade, they're still basically an average team. While the worst is over after the Knicks and three striped-shirted friends managed to beat Orlando on Monday to end a six-game losing streak, the big picture hasn't changed. Since the trade, New York is 8-12 with a plus-1 scoring margin, and it's come against a very representative schedule -- 10 home games and 10 road games, 10 winning teams and 10 losing teams. Fittingly, today's playoff odds project the Knicks to finish at a perfectly average 41-41.

It wasn't supposed to be like this. The Knicks heralded Anthony's arrival as their launchpad to contender status, bringing in a second star to pair with Amare Stoudemire. But a number of factors since have contributed to their disappointing record.

As I noted above, it doesn't appear Anthony has been the problem. He's putting up the same numbers he did in Denver, more or less, and has rediscovered the 3-point shot after essentially abandoning it over the first 50 games. His rebounds are down, but overall his PER as a Knick is virtually identical to his pretrade mark as a Nugget.

Instead, it's the other positions where New York has suffered. For starters, Stoudemire isn't playing like he did before the trade. In the 20 games with Anthony, he's averaging two points per game fewer while playing more minutes; he's also shooting a lower percentage, rebounding less and has had a glaring decline in blocked shots -- from 2.2 to 1.2 per game.

While Melo and Amare aren't great complements offensively, I'm not saying Stoudemire's recent decline can be pinned on Anthony. Stoudemire has complained of fatigue lately, after a heavy workload on his surgically repaired knees in the first half of the season, and to me he's looked dead-legged on several occasions. One example that stuck in my mind was the very first play of the Milwaukee game last week, when Stoudemire caught the ball near the baseline and went for one of his patented dives to the basket. But instead of dunking, he barely got to rim level and tried to lay it in; Andrew Bogut flicked it aside easily.

There are other, secondary issues involving other players that are unrelated to the Melo trade as well. Most notably, Landry Fields' game has deserted him of late and he was recently replaced in the starting lineup. Also, the Knicks' bizarre insistence on getting Jared Jeffries and his 29.9 percent shooting into the lineup has been a drag on their offensive numbers.


And then there's the defense. Anthony has never been renowned as a defensive stopper, but the player he replaced (Danilo Gallinari) wasn't exactly vying for all-defense honors, either. Nonetheless, New York's defensive efficiency has plummeted to 108.9 since the trade, which is very nearly the worst mark in the league -- even though five of the Bockers' 20 games after the trade came against the league's two worst offensive teams, Cleveland and Milwaukee.

Of course, it wasn't just Anthony who was replaced, and that's where we get to the real problem with New York. They'll play a little better than they are now if Stoudemire regains his legs and Fields recovers, but not dramatically so.

Unfortunately, to really use the Melo trade as a pole vault to contending, the Knicks need Wilson Chandler and Raymond Felton.

Oops.

Felton's ability to stop the ball at the point of attack stands in stark contrast to Chauncey Billups' glaring inability to do so, while Chandler's mobility and ability to cover two positions similarly made up for some of New York's other defensive shortcomings. It's no accident that the Nuggets' defense has improved dramatically since the trade; while there are other factors, too, adding those two in place of Billups and Anthony has been a huge plus.

Of course, Felton and Chandler -- along with Gallinari and a whole crate full of other goodies -- were sent out to acquire Anthony. They had to lose Chandler to acquire Anthony, and that swap on its own would have engendered a fairly massive improvement for the Knicks.

But this is where we get to the same vicious cycle that has plagued the Knicks throughout James Dolan's ownership. Ultimately, this is a franchise that cares a lot more about winning news conferences than it does about patiently building a winner, a wicked undercurrent that even Donnie Walsh was powerless to stop.

So Dolan wanted to get Anthony regardless of the cost, and that they did. Along the way they convinced themselves Melo was a top-10 player when there isn't a shred of evidence to support that contention. Basically, it was the Herschel Walker trade, but for basketball. If this trade ends up building a contender, it will be in Denver, not New York.

The bizarre part is that the Knicks somehow convinced themselves Anthony was the only marquee player available, despite the undeniable lure of the New York market -- a fact embarrassingly proved false when the Nets acquired Deron Williams for far less just a day later.

Now New York is left with a stripped-down roster that has two stars, a point guard aging before our eyes, and not a whole lot else. And although Anthony is good enough that having him and Billups is still slightly better than having Felton, Gallinari, Chandler and Timofey Mozgov, the opportunity cost of this acquisition was enormous -- the Knicks basically can't make any other moves involving a first-round pick for the next half-decade, and have no other young assets to put into deals for any other players. They recklessly committed all their assets to a deal that only marginally improved the team, much as they did nearly a decade earlier with the Stephon Marbury trade. While talk of a third star joining up looms in the background, the Knicks' cap situation and lack of trade assets makes it an unlikely scenario, as our Chad Ford recently detailed.

So the Knicks are an average team, or at best a slightly above-average one, and are likely to continue in that orbit until Stoudemire's knees give out. Melo will be blamed for this, but it's not his fault. The Knicks made a superstar trade for a player they should have known darn well wasn't a superstar, and denuded the roster in the process. As a result, they'll have trouble winning a single playoff series, either this year or in future ones.

But at least they won the news conference. In Dolan's world, the rest is secondary.
He looked like a superstar tonight.
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  #2  
Old 04-20-2011, 02:47 AM
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clyde clyde is offline
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I'm ashamed of you ,Dahla...very,very weak.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:52 AM
horseofcourse horseofcourse is offline
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my answer to the question of the thread is still yes. I saw the highlghts of game 1 on youtubes and melo looked like LeBronze....down two he refuses to penetrate and takes a 30 foot contested 3 after dribbling out the clock and his team loses big game.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:15 PM
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my answer to the question of the thread is still yes. I saw the highlghts of game 1 on youtubes and melo looked like LeBronze....down two he refuses to penetrate and takes a 30 foot contested 3 after dribbling out the clock and his team loses big game.
He carried them in game two with AS's back acting up....can't blame Melo for either loss, the Knicks simply can't close out games against the better teams, they could be 2-0 if they could. They aren't far from being a pretty good team, Orlando is declining so next year they could easily be fourth behind the Heat, Bulls and Celtics.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:31 PM
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How was Mr. Carryall in the first game?




One game does not make a superstar all round player---which he is not.

Let's not make Marshmellow out to be anything more than what he is.
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  #6  
Old 04-21-2011, 03:38 PM
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Melo is one of the better players in the league, not in the top half dozen (Kobe, James, Rose, Durant, Paul, Wade) but certainly among the second tier.
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:15 PM
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Oh he's a fine 2nd tier player.



Stick to American NyTol.
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Old 04-22-2011, 01:42 PM
horseofcourse horseofcourse is offline
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He carried them in game two with AS's back acting up....can't blame Melo for either loss, the Knicks simply can't close out games against the better teams, they could be 2-0 if they could. They aren't far from being a pretty good team, Orlando is declining so next year they could easily be fourth behind the Heat, Bulls and Celtics.
He played fine. But they lost. I think they gave up too much and they aren't any better with him than they were before they got him. Saying he played like LeBron is a compliment actually. They would have made the playoffs without making the trade and they'd be no worse for the wear than being down 2-0 in the first round. I think they gave up too much, but in the end it doesn't matter when Chris Paul joins up. You know that is what they're waiting for. I think they'd have been as good if Chris Paul joined the pre-trade roster or the Carmelo roster. The world today is more about propaganda then results especially in this country...the Carmelo trade was good propaganda for the Knicks even though it changed results none. Look at our elections today...pure propaganda events. The results always the same regardless of the propaganda or who is actually elected. Our elections are just as rigged as any country's elections we make fun of...it's simply broadway theater to make us think there is any difference between what we are electing whatsoever. There is none.


The Carmelo trade was simply theater for the masses. It had nothing to do with anything whatsoever results wise. For the Nuggets it was simply about not getting LeBroned next free agency by Melo and to get as much as possible...(see Deron Williams trade). They can't win a title with or without Melo for the short term future until they get Chris Paul.
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by horseofcourse View Post
He played fine. But they lost. I think they gave up too much and they aren't any better with him than they were before they got him. Saying he played like LeBron is a compliment actually. They would have made the playoffs without making the trade and they'd be no worse for the wear than being down 2-0 in the first round. I think they gave up too much, but in the end it doesn't matter when Chris Paul joins up. You know that is what they're waiting for. I think they'd have been as good if Chris Paul joined the pre-trade roster or the Carmelo roster. The world today is more about propaganda then results especially in this country...the Carmelo trade was good propaganda for the Knicks even though it changed results none. Look at our elections today...pure propaganda events. The results always the same regardless of the propaganda or who is actually elected. Our elections are just as rigged as any country's elections we make fun of...it's simply broadway theater to make us think there is any difference between what we are electing whatsoever. There is none.


The Carmelo trade was simply theater for the masses. It had nothing to do with anything whatsoever results wise. For the Nuggets it was simply about not getting LeBroned next free agency by Melo and to get as much as possible...(see Deron Williams trade). They can't win a title with or without Melo for the short term future until they get Chris Paul.
The Knicks aren't getting Chris Paul or Deron Williams with AS and CA on the roster. They can't sign them as a FA because of the cap and who do they have left to make a sign and trade? Think NO will take Toney Douglas and Sean Williams and a 2020 1st rounder for Paul? Think the crazy Russian will help the Knicks? The Knicks hardly have any draft picks left in the immediate future and they are now good enough to win enough games to ensure they get a middling pick anyway. They should have stayed put with the team they had and did a sign and trade with Denver after the season sending Chandler and some spare part for Anthony. Or tell Anthony that there is a take it or leave it deal for him, sign it or don't. He would have signed and they would still have a roster full of good, young pros. Or in other words tradable assets. They still were going to make the playoffs and might have even actually won a game. The idea that this is just a first step seems to ignore the fact that the cap is going to be tougher to maneuver around going forward and with giant holes at PG, C, SG and with no depth I just don't see this being much different than Denver East.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:12 PM
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He looked like a superstar tonight.
The guy actually hit the nail right on the head. The point is that they don't have enough to win and CA just scores and doesn't contribute enough elsewhere to be worth what they gave up for him including giving up cap flexibility. He is a great scorer and a good rebounder but when the other team doubles you and triple you like they did the other night and there isnt a single other guy who can score despite being wide open...you know....

and yeah I know that AS and CB were out but do you really think he has that game if he isnt forced to be the entire offense? Plus is it really a shocker that a 35 year old PG or a brittle guy with uninsured knees are hurt?
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Old 04-22-2011, 01:29 AM
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The guy actually hit the nail right on the head. The point is that they don't have enough to win and CA just scores and doesn't contribute enough elsewhere to be worth what they gave up for him including giving up cap flexibility. He is a great scorer and a good rebounder but when the other team doubles you and triple you like they did the other night and there isnt a single other guy who can score despite being wide open...you know....

and yeah I know that AS and CB were out but do you really think he has that game if he isnt forced to be the entire offense? Plus is it really a shocker that a 35 year old PG or a brittle guy with uninsured knees are hurt?
I don't think the knicks expected to contend for anything this year when they made the trade. I think they wanted a guy to potentially build around and pair up with Amare. I don't think there was a single player in what they traded that will end up being anything special.

In game 2, Carmello looked like a player that was worth trading what they did to get him. He was clearly the best player on the floor for either team. You do whatever you have to do to get a guy like this because there are less than a dozen of them out there.
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Old 04-22-2011, 05:46 AM
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I don't think the knicks expected to contend for anything this year when they made the trade. I think they wanted a guy to potentially build around and pair up with Amare. I don't think there was a single player in what they traded that will end up being anything special.

In game 2, Carmello looked like a player that was worth trading what they did to get him. He was clearly the best player on the floor for either team. You do whatever you have to do to get a guy like this because there are less than a dozen of them out there.
Contend? Winning a game might be nice. Again, I am a Knicks fan and I hope I am wrong but they need actual NBA players to fill out roster spots 4-12.
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:05 PM
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Contend? Winning a game might be nice. Again, I am a Knicks fan and I hope I am wrong but they need actual NBA players to fill out roster spots 4-12.
They played down to the wire two games, on the road, against a rugged veteran team...without their starting point guard for all of one and part of another and without their all world power forward for most of the second game.

I think its fair to say that without some bad luck this series might have gone six. Heck, it might go 6 anyway.
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:07 PM
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They played down to the wire two games, on the road, against a rugged veteran team...without their starting point guard for all of one and part of another and without their all world power forward for most of the second game.

I think its fair to say that without some bad luck this series might have gone six. Heck, it might go 6 anyway.
If Boston had bothered showing up for the first 2 games we would have had more games like tonight's.
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:12 PM
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He looked like a superstar tonight.
How about last night?
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Old 04-23-2011, 06:29 PM
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How about last night?
He looked pretty bad last night
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