Handle Decline Continues...

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by pointman

Let me guess, you have a government job? You got a raise in the last 2 to 3 years? The sector that I work in is particualry telling, the economy is not good and people don't have a lot of excess money right now. If you don't believe me, then explain why housing markets are not recovering. I did not state that the economy was the entire decline, just something that has to be factored into the equation.

As for the rest of your nonsense, while cheaters hurt the game to some extent, they have been around almost as long as the game and certainly were doing it when the game was in its so called heyday. I would love to hear when you believe the influx occurred that was parallel to the decline. Next you will tell us that the decline of on track attendance is more proof of the game's decline! Before you go accusing others of an inability to understand, you should look in the mirror.

Not going to debate the issue with you. You lost me at "...around almost as long as the game" nonsense. If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

As far as the economy goes, I think you're the one with the government job. Make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more money, despite the market. Gambling almost always works independent of economic times. Sure, there might be moderate fluctuations but, the reality is, most gamblers will find the money to wager. They may not find the money to replace the moth eaten sweaters or toeless sneakers but they will find money to bet.

You cannot convince me that the casino industry is showing a decline. If economy was the issue, all gambling would be off. It's not.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Not going to debate the issue with you. You lost me at "...around almost as long as the game" nonsense. If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

As far as the economy goes, I think you're the one with the government job. Make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more money, despite the market. Gambling almost always works independent of economic times. Sure, there might be moderate fluctuations but, the reality is, most gamblers will find the money to wager. They may not find the money to replace the moth eaten sweaters or toeless sneakers but they will find money to bet.

You cannot convince me that the casino industry is showing a decline. If economy was the issue, all gambling would be off. It's not.

Dude an economy is not a few people making a ton of money. An economy is having a huge middle class with purchasing power to fuel the machine. Money = Fuel for the engine. An economy can not function with 2% of the people having 95% of the money. That is how it works in the third world. Full Disclousre, I am working making 6 figs and have never been unemployed. Also I don't don blinkers.

PS.

The casino industry is in utter ****ing shambles.

The casino industry has no one to blame but themselves. They are the ones who pushed riverboats everywhere.

And now they're shocked that Vegas and Atlantic City are on the verge of collapse? Duh, you f.ucking idiots. The heartland came to you...now they don't have to because of your greed.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

The casino industry has no one to blame but themselves. They are the ones who pushed riverboats everywhere.

And now they're shocked that Vegas and Atlantic City are on the verge of collapse? Duh, you f.ucking idiots. The heartland came to you...now they don't have to because of your greed.

And they still want to build in both places.. WTF is that?

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dude an economy is not a few people making a ton of money. An economy is having a huge middle class with purchasing power to fuel the machine. Money = Fuel for the engine. An economy can not function with 2% of the people having 95% of the money. That is how it works in the third world. Full Disclousre, I am working making 6 figs and have never been unemployed. Also I don't don blinkers.

PS.

The casino industry is in utter ****ing shambles.

The casino industry is hardly in shambles. There are just too many of them now. The major difference is the entire pot of gambling dollars. The racing industry vs the casino industry (minus vegas). I'm talking tribal casinos here.

The point I'm trying to make is that racing is on the decline for MANY more reasons outside of the economy. I personally believe that as soon as the game became as shady as it is today (and I'm speaking 100% about the trainers that are using drugs to win) a large percentage of the BIG players simply went elsewhere with their money. That is what started the downward trend.

Regarding the economy, 2% making most of the wealth does suck. I too make 6 figs and never been unemployed but also feel, like you, that the rich vs. everyone else disparity is a joke. I just don't know how that relates to this discussion.

Bottom line is I'm so tired of hearing people blame racing's decline on the economy. It's like their saying the racing industry was doing so well and once the economy turned downward, racing started to decline. That is such a joke. While I believe the drug issue started the downward trend, racing as a whole has compounded the issue with absurd management and marketing.

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Not going to debate the issue with you. You lost me at "...around almost as long as the game" nonsense. If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

As far as the economy goes, I think you're the one with the government job. Make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more money, despite the market. Gambling almost always works independent of economic times. Sure, there might be moderate fluctuations but, the reality is, most gamblers will find the money to wager. They may not find the money to replace the moth eaten sweaters or toeless sneakers but they will find money to bet.

You cannot convince me that the casino industry is showing a decline. If economy was the issue, all gambling would be off. It's not.

Where have you been? Read this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...tml?cmpid=yhoo

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by asudevil

Where have you been? Read this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...tml?cmpid=yhoo

Point? Atlantic City is being hit by casino expansion. Again, I'm talking about the nationwide casino dollars being spent vs. the nationwide racing dollars being spent. Racing is declining at a free fall rate. If the economy was the issue, overall gambling should be declining at the same rate.

Show me that article...

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Not going to debate the issue with you. You lost me at "...around almost as long as the game" nonsense. If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

As far as the economy goes, I think you're the one with the government job. Make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more money, despite the market. Gambling almost always works independent of economic times. Sure, there might be moderate fluctuations but, the reality is, most gamblers will find the money to wager. They may not find the money to replace the moth eaten sweaters or toeless sneakers but they will find money to bet.

You cannot convince me that the casino industry is showing a decline. If economy was the issue, all gambling would be off. It's not.

I assure you that I don't have a government job and that I do quite well, in fact even in this bad environment this will easily be my best year yet, but I guess you weren't able to get my point in the first place. If you think drugging is a new thing than you are really lost, but you tipped that off as well by admitting that you got lost at that point. There was cheating going on 30, 40 years ago, even longer. In fact, there may have been more then as there was little to no detection methods back then.

I am tired of the doom and gloom from people like you. Horseracing will get through the bad economy, the trainers that give their horses illicit drugs and will be around for a long time. The real problem is the competition it has had from other sports gaining popularity and taking TV time, competition from the casinos for the gambling dollar which are popping up everywhere and the watered down product caused by trainers keeping their horses in the barns instread of running them creating much smaller fields. Then there is a reason that explains a large portion of the decline, the fact that the largest bet taker in the country of Thoroghbred racing was in business March of last year and is out of business March of this year. It is going to take some time to recover all of those lost players. While the cheating contributes to it, it is not the major factor for recent declines as you unwittingly claim.

The casino industry thought it was economy proof until the last few years. They have had declines in the last two to three years despite the fact that States have legalized gambling allowing it in places never before which should have increased the revenue. That said, most casinos are still seeing declines and the ones that aren't are barely gaining if at all. But go ahead, keep telling everyone the sport is going into the s.hit.ter.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by pointman

I assure you that I don't have a government job and that I do quite well, in fact even in this bad environment this will easily be my best year yet, but I guess you weren't able to get my point in the first place. If you think drugging is a new thing than you are really lost, but you tipped that off as well by admitting that you got lost at that point. There was cheating going on 30, 40 years ago, even longer. In fact, there may have been more then as there was little to no detection methods back then.

I am tired of the doom and gloom from people like you. Horseracing will get through the bad economy, the trainers that give their horses illicit drugs and will be around for a long time. The real problem is the competition it has had from other sports gaining popularity and taking TV time, competition from the casinos for the gambling dollar which are popping up everywhere and the watered down product caused by trainers keeping their horses in the barns instread of running them creating much smaller fields. Then there is a reason that explains a large portion of the decline, the fact that the largest bet taker in the country of Thoroghbred racing was in business March of last year and is out of business March of this year. It is going to take some time to recover all of those lost players. While the cheating contributes to it, it is not the major factor for recent declines as you unwittingly claim.

The casino industry thought it was economy proof until the last few years. They have had declines in the last two to three years despite the fact that States have legalized gambling allowing it in places never before which should have increased the revenue. That said, most casinos are still seeing declines and the ones that aren't are barely gaining if at all. But go ahead, keep telling everyone the sport is going into the s.hit.ter.

"....the sport is going into the s.hit.ter" To think it's not is absurd. It is not people like me and all my doom and gloom that is the problem. It is people that make excuses for those that cause it to be all doom and gloom. I've followed horse racing since 1986. I can tell you the game has never been as blatantly corrupt as it is now. You can choose to think it isn't or choose to think that doesn't affect the state is in now. I choose to believe it does. If it isn't the main reason for the start of the decline of horse racing, it certainly has contributed to it.

I'm sure many that read my posts will think I just have an axe to grind about the drug issue. Well, whenever I look at PP's and see guys winning with broken animals and instead of going to prison where they belong for committing a felonious act of tampering with a pari-mutual wagering event, they are praised, it sickens me.

The game is on the decline. Unfortunately, I cannot do a damn thing to stop it short of taking symbolic stance.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

I'm sure many that read my posts will think I just have an axe to grind about the drug issue. Well, whenever I look at PP's and see guys winning with broken animals and instead of going to prison where they belong for committing a felonious act of tampering with a pari-mutual wagering event, they are praised, it sickens me.
.

You can tell from pp's that guys are winning with "broken animals"? You do know the b in PP's is blinkers not broken right?

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You can tell from pp's that guys are winning with "broken animals"? You do know the b in PP's is blinkers not broken right?

LOL, please the nonsense he is tossing out is never ending, you could go on all day attempting to get any factual basis to support the crap he is throwing out. You would think he would quit before he gets further behind.

[cakes44]

I make 5 figs. I suck.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by cakes44

I make 5 figs. I suck.

If its d.ick you are sucking you are doing better than most in the private sector in this economy!

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

"....the sport is going into the s.hit.ter" To think it's not is absurd. It is not people like me and all my doom and gloom that is the problem. It is people that make excuses for those that cause it to be all doom and gloom. I've followed horse racing since 1986. I can tell you the game has never been as blatantly corrupt as it is now. You can choose to think it isn't or choose to think that doesn't affect the state is in now. I choose to believe it does. If it isn't the main reason for the start of the decline of horse racing, it certainly has contributed to it.

I'm sure many that read my posts will think I just have an axe to grind about the drug issue. Well, whenever I look at PP's and see guys winning with broken animals and instead of going to prison where they belong for committing a felonious act of tampering with a pari-mutual wagering event, they are praised, it sickens me.

The game is on the decline. Unfortunately, I cannot do a damn thing to stop it short of taking symbolic stance.

You are laughable. Nice attempt to take what I said out of context in a futile attempt to save face. No one condones the cheating and drugging, but it has to be taken in context, particularly with regard to the issue of the decline in handle. You stated matter of factly that the real reason for the decline in handle is the cheating by trainers. This is simply not true, it is merely a factor amongst many other factors of which many of the others are the main reason for the decline in handle from this time last year to this time this year which is what the drf article was about.

Once again, you continue to insist that cheating is a new thing which is simply wrong. Drugging horses has gone back a long time and was done and known to the public well before decline in handle. In fact, race fixing in addition to drugging was a much larger problem years ago than it is today. It amazes me that people spout out nonsense and then continue to insist they are right while attempting to belittle those who correct them. If you have been following horse racing since 1986 you obviously haven't learned much. There was plenty of drugging going on then and this suggestion that it started sometime in the mid 1990's and drove big gamblers away is absurd.

Cheating is simply part of human nature and will occur anywhere humans are involved. It is not just horseracing that has cheaters using drugs to gain an advantage, but baseball, football, hockey, cycling, Olympic sports, you name it. Why isn't the cheating driving fans away from those sports?

Instead of posting before thinking you might try the opposite, you just might post something worth reading. Stop being a fan of horseracing, thank god Zenyatta has brought many new fans to the sport, it can afford to lose one!

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by pointman

You are laughable. Nice attempt to take what I said out of context in a futile attempt to save face. No one condones the cheating and drugging, but it has to be taken in context, particularly with regard to the issue of the decline in handle. You stated matter of factly that the real reason for the decline in handle is the cheating by trainers. This is simply not true, it is merely a factor amongst many other factors of which many of the others are the main reason for the decline in handle from this time last year to this time this year which is what the drf article was about.

Once again, you continue to insist that cheating is a new thing which is simply wrong. Drugging horses has gone back a long time and was done and known to the public well before decline in handle. In fact, race fixing in addition to drugging was a much larger problem years ago than it is today. It amazes me that people spout out nonsense and then continue to insist they are right while attempting to belittle those who correct them. If you have been following horse racing since 1986 you obviously haven't learned much. There was plenty of drugging going on then and this suggestion that it started sometime in the mid 1990's and drove big gamblers away is absurd.

Cheating is simply part of human nature and will occur anywhere humans are involved. It is not just horseracing that has cheaters using drugs to gain an advantage, but baseball, football, hockey, cycling, Olympic sports, you name it. Why isn't the cheating driving fans away from those sports?

Instead of posting before thinking you might try the opposite, you just might post something worth reading. Stop being a fan of horseracing, thank god Zenyatta has brought many new fans to the sport, it can afford to lose one!

What's laughable is someone taking offense to this. Are you kidding me?

You mentioned the other sports where cheating occurs....baseball (cleaned it up and is prosecuting those that took steriods and humiliating those "great" players like Clemens and McGuire by not allowing them in the Hall of Fame. That is how a real industry handles those that taint the sport). Football, hockey have done similar. Cycling?!?? Are you joking? The drug issue in that sport is destroying it. They can't get a good handle on it and it is killing the sport. Olympics....very similar to cycling.

I understand that cheating has been in the sport forever. But cheating today is completely different and much, much, much more rampant.

There's really no point in you and I debating it. I believe the horse players should try and stand up to this in whatever way they can. You believe horse players should excuse it so you can keep playing the game. The current drug situation in the sport came on the scene in the mid to late 1990's. Same time as baseball and all the other sports.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

What's laughable is someone taking offense to this. Are you kidding me?

You mentioned the other sports where cheating occurs....baseball (cleaned it up and is prosecuting those that took steriods and humiliating those "great" players like Clemens and McGuire by not allowing them in the Hall of Fame. That is how a real industry handles those that taint the sport). Football, hockey have done similar. Cycling?!?? Are you joking? The drug issue in that sport is destroying it. They can't get a good handle on it and it is killing the sport. Olympics....very similar to cycling.

I understand that cheating has been in the sport forever. But cheating today is completely different and much, much, much more rampant.

There's really no point in you and I debating it. I believe the horse players should try and stand up to this in whatever way they can. You believe horse players should excuse it so you can keep playing the game. The current drug situation in the sport came on the scene in the mid to late 1990's. Same time as baseball and all the other sports.

You are simply speculating and have no real clue of what you are talking about. The idea that there is more "cheating" now than 30 years ago is laughable. The difference is that there is a whole lot more info available. 30 years ago you would have never heard of guys you have named in this thread because there was no simulcasting and for the most part people followed one circuit and no one paid any attention to anyones win percentage. Stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact especially when your entire defense is baseball players or cyclists.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are simply speculating and have no real clue of what you are talking about. The idea that there is more "cheating" now than 30 years ago is laughable. The difference is that there is a whole lot more info available. 30 years ago you would have never heard of guys you have named in this thread because there was no simulcasting and for the most part people followed one circuit and no one paid any attention to anyones win percentage. Stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact especially when your entire defense is baseball players or cyclists.

I speak english

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

30 years ago you would have never heard of guys you have named in this thread because there was no simulcasting and for the most part people followed one circuit and no one paid any attention to anyones win percentage.

The fundamental premise of the thread - that cheating is "rampant" at all tracks - is something that I do not agree with, as I believe the vast majority of trainers are plying their trades within the rules. Will there always be someone trying to utilize illicit means to make money? Yes, but the point that you made above is something that racing needs to come to grips with.

In the 1980s, before the simulcasting explosion, when racing was really a really a regional exercise, a NY horseplayer had to deal with Oscar Barrera, and likely had no idea who his counterparts in places like California or Philadelpia were. Now, because of full-card simulcasting and racing really becoming a national sport, they are aware of guys like Mullins and Guerrero, and the perception is that guys like that exist in almost every racing jurisdiction. Even if the "cheating" is not "rampant" at all tracks, the existence of guys like those mentioned at almost every venue lead some to conclude that the problem is universal.

That said, pointman makes an excellent point about the demise of NYC OTB and its impact on national handle. Also, I'd love to know the comparative numbers about handle through off-shore accounts that never hits the pools. My sense is that handle continues to bleed out of the pools in this manner.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

If you really believe cheating today is similar to what it was even 15 years ago, we are not going to have a legitimate discussion.

LOl How exactly do you measure this?

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOl How exactly do you measure this?

Why do I need to measure it?