Praying for Cash retired

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I will say that anyone who actually knows horses intimately, ie.. actually is hands on owners, riders etc... will tell you to a person that there is no way you can deny the surface is easier on a horses legs,

I am - and it is actually harder on horse's soft tissue, which is just as crucial to their ability to stay healthy enough to be racehorses than bone conditions and injuries sustained by concussion on dirt....

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I am - and it is actually harder on horse's soft tissue, which is just as crucial to their ability to stay healthy enough to be racehorses than bone conditions and injuries sustained by concussion on dirt....

I completely disagree,the concussion on soft tissues and joints is completely different, it is absorbed much more readily by the entire body, thats why the horses legs are not swelling and stocking up after running on it, they are bouncing over it as opposed to pounding their legs on the dirt.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, but I completely disagree.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I completely disagree,the concussion on soft tissues and joints is completely different, it is absorbed much more readily by the entire body, thats why the horses legs are not swelling and stocking up after running on it, they are bouncing over it as opposed to pounding their legs on the dirt.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, but I completely disagree.

And I completely disagree with you.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

And I completely disagree with you.

And I respectfully with you.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I completely disagree,the concussion on soft tissues and joints is completely different, it is absorbed much more readily by the entire body, thats why the horses legs are not swelling and stocking up after running on it, they are bouncing over it as opposed to pounding their legs on the dirt.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, but I completely disagree.

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

I still am a traditionalist though, and don't advocate polytrack except in those extreme circumstances and for training tracks.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

It's kind of like swimming in a way...

Swimming is very good for people (and animals) that have had an impactual injury, but the water resistance is tougher on soft tissue. I really don't know how to put it into words, but I disagree with your thought on it...

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

It's kind of like swimming in a way...

Swimming is very good for people (and animals) that have had an impactual injury, but the water resistance is tougher on soft tissue. I really don't know how to put it into words, but I disagree with your thought on it...

Well, I am basing it on my experience and don't see how in the world you could correlate training over polytrack to a swimming pool. If anything, synthetic surfaces create less resistance than dirt surfaces because of the boyancy factor. It creates less resistance to my animals anyway. Horses bounce over it, which is why so many TBs who are talented on the dirt have problems running over it.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Well, I am basing it on my experience and don't see how in the world you could correlate training over polytrack to a swimming pool. If anything, synthetic surfaces create less resistance than dirt surfaces because of the boyancy factor. Horses bounce over it, which is why so many TBs who are talented on the dirt have problems running over it.

And because it's so buoyant, they don't hit the ground as hard, correct? What do you think happens to horses who are USED to hitting the ground hard? They will still use JUST AS MUCH effort to pick their feet up and because of that, it causes more soft injury injuries. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Cunningham on this one.

Here's the definition for buoyant (in case you were wondering why I compared the surface to swimming):

buoyant
–adjective

1. tending to float in a fluid.
2. capable of keeping a body afloat, as a liquid.
3. not easily depressed; cheerful.
4. cheering or invigorating.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

And because it's so buoyant, they don't hit the ground as hard, correct? What do you think happens to horses who are USED to hitting the ground hard? They will still use JUST AS MUCH effort to pick their feet up and because of that, it causes more soft injury injuries. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Cunningham on this one.

Here's the definition for buoyant (in case you were wondering why I compared the surface to swimming):

buoyant
–adjective

1. tending to float in a fluid.
2. capable of keeping a body afloat, as a liquid.
3. not easily depressed; cheerful.
4. cheering or invigorating.

The horses may use just as much effort, but the fact is that they are not hitting the ground nearly as hard because the surface has so much give it it. If that were the case, horses would suffer just as many or more injuries on the dirt surfaces. Concussion injuries often involve soft tissue. I know because I've been there and done that. Therefore, this is not the reason that soft tissue injuries would occur on the synthetic surface. I may agree with Cunningham Racing in the end too, but not for the reasons that you stated because he stated different reasons. In no way can training over polytrack equate to swimming in a swimming pool. Totally different. There is no resistance when training over a synthetic surface.

The main reason he stated as to why the synthetic surface would hurt a horse's soft tissue is the same reason that helps my jumpers over the surface so much. The horses tend to shift more of their weight to their hind end because they have so much bounce, which is why trainers are now seeing more soft tissue problems in the horse's hind ends when training over this surface. I didn't know that trainers were seeing more problems in the hind ends of their race horses while training and racing on the surface. Also, I didn't know until he told me that the horses slip over the surface easily and the surface breaks underneath them. Those are other reasons for the soft tissue injuries in the hind end. Now, Joel's claims make perfect sense...

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

I still am a traditionalist though, and don't advocate polytrack except in those extreme circumstances and for training tracks.

The more a horse slips, runs off balance, and the track breaks away from him - the more prone he will miss step or over step in ways that cause soft tissue injuries.....Also, I have talked to more than few trainers who wintered at Turfway Park this past winter who came back to CD in the spring and told me that while they had less injuries with horses up front, they incurred far more injuries with horses rear ends.....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The more a horse slips, runs off balance, and the track breaks away from him - the more prone he will miss step or over step in ways that cause soft tissue injuries.....Also, I have talked to more than few trainers who wintered at Turfway Park this past winter who came back to CD in the spring and told me that while they had less injuries with horses up front, they incurred far more injuries with horses rear ends.....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

Alright, I'll withold further judgment until a friend tells me how his horses are doing over the stuff. I didn't know that horses often slipped over the stuff or that the track broke away more easily. That would definitely cause soft tissue injuries.

....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

And Joel, you knew that I knew this stuff I know that I am ignorant about some things, but I am not THAT ignorant .

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Alright, I'll withold further judgment until a friend tells me how his horses are doing over the stuff. I didn't know that horses often slipped over the stuff or that the track broke away more easily. That would definitely cause soft tissue injuries.

....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

And Joel, you knew that I knew this stuff I know that I am ignorant about some things, but I am not THAT ignorant .

I know, I wasn't talking at you...I was making a general point to support concerns for hind end issues and how serious theyv were...

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Alright, I'll withold further judgment until a friend tells me how his horses are doing over the stuff. I didn't know that horses often slipped over the stuff or that the track broke away more easily. That would definitely cause soft tissue injuries.

....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

And Joel, you knew that I knew this stuff I know that I am ignorant about some things, but I am not THAT ignorant .

Its why they train fine and seem to be sounder when training over it, as opposed to the running itself.
But they aren't going breakneck full speed in the mornings. Afternoons are another story.