Praying for Cash retired

Originally Posted by paisjpq

he survived it didn't he?

I think thats the problem with how "breakdowns" are being sold to the public on this stuff.
Thats two garded stakes horses in a week whose careers are over now(Noble Stella) after working on poly. WOuld they have broken on dirt? probably.
But the breakdown stat being pumped here by poly propagandists is strictly tragic brteakdowns, menaing put down on the track.
They don't keep stats for carrer ending injuries so long as the horse has a pulse.
This is the biggest myth and crock ever attempted to be perpetuated on the American racing public.
Sorry to hear this talented colt won't be running anymore.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think thats the problem with how "breakdowns" are being sold to the public on this stuff.
Thats two garded stakes horses in a week whose careers are over now(Noble Stella) after working on poly. WOuld they have broken on dirt? probably.
But the breakdown stat being pumped here by poly propagandists is strictly tragic brteakdowns, menaing put down on the track.
They don't keep stats for carrer ending injuries so long as the horse has a pulse.
This is the biggest myth and crock ever attempted to be perpetuated on the American racing public.
Sorry to hear this talented colt won't be running anymore.

I am neither for or against polytrack, my point was simply that had this horse been injured on the dirt he may not have survived. I think, that he did survive, is a benefit.

Do they keep stats for career ending injuries on the dirt? I would be interested in comparing those two numbers.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

I do believe that a synthetic surface is safer than SOME dirt surfaces. However, I would have much rather seen tracks trying to tweak their dirt surfaces to make them safer rather than just embracing synthetic surfaces. Like the good dirt surfaces, synthetic surfaces aren't going to prevent all breakdowns. I do believe they they prevent a lot of breakdowns or the breakdowns from being so grotesque or fatal though. I need to see more to make a decision on how safe that I think the synthetic surfaces are compared to a good dirt surface. I would imagine that they are about the same.

With that being said, I definitely think that polytrack has purposes on tracks that need an all-weather surface, tracks that have had an unimaginable number of breakdowns who have tried tweaking their dirt surface, or for training purposes. Otherwise, KEEP IT OUT OF THE INDUSTRY!!!

[Cajungator26]

I think that the stuff is still too new to make overly drastic opinions on it in ANY DIRECTION as of yet, but I believe that they are selling this stuff as "safer" and I don't think it is any safer than a well cushioned dirt track. JMO...

I have showed on the stuff for YEARS and my jumper did NOT like it at all. While it isn't as hard on a horse's legs impactually, it IS harder on them in the standpoint that it takes more effort to pick the legs up out of it. That was my experience with the stuff.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Most of my horses have done wonderful over the stuff. They get a ton of bounce off of it. Well, most of the horses that I have ridden are incredibly scopy anyway...

I don't think that it is any harder for them to pick their legs up out of than a dirt ring unless they have the ring incredibly deep with the stuff (I've actually ridden in a horribly deep dirt ring before, but not a horribly deep sand/rubber mixed ring). My horses bounce over it. At the big shows up here, that is not the case. The surfaces in the rings are always incredible. Otherwise, show management would have a lot of mad riders and trainers.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Most of my horses have done wonderful over the stuff. They get a ton of bounce off of it. Well, most of the horses that I have ridden are incredibly scopy anyway...

I don't think that it is any harder for them to pick their legs up out of than a dirt ring unless they have the ring incredibly deep with the stuff (I've actually ridden in a horribly deep dirt ring before, but not a horribly deep sand/rubber mixed ring). My horses bounce over it. At the big shows up here, that is not the case. The surfaces in the rings are always incredible. Otherwise, show management would have a lot of mad riders and trainers.

In my opinion it is a huge balance issue with the horses....when you are running on a surface with the boyancy and give to it as Polytrack has in relation to dirt, it screws with the entire balance of what horses are used to - and for many - what they were bred for and what their bio-mechanics were genetically tailored to.....

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

In my opinion it is a huge balance issue with the horses....when you are running on a surface with the boyancy and give to it as Polytrack has in relation to dirt, it screws with the entire balance of what horses are used to - and for many - what they were bred for and what their bio-mechanics were genetically tailored to.....

Oh, there is no doubt about that. It definitely screws with their balance. It just happens that all of the horses that I have ridden have been positively affected by that type of surface. Of course, they are jumpers where boyancy and scope are very important. You want their weight back on their hind end, and really lifting their shoulders up so that you can adjust their stride easier and so that they can easily get their front end up over a jump. I can see where boyancy would totally **** with a racehorse's balance, striding, and overall movement who was not used to running on that type of surface or who wasn't built to run on that type of surface. A lot of racehorses are built slightly downhill because they are still maturing and their hind end grows faster than their front end. Boyancy would hinder these horses. I even believe that a synthetic surface may even prolong the susupension phase in their strides on some of these horses.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I do believe that a synthetic surface is safer than SOME dirt surfaces. However, I would have much rather seen tracks trying to tweak their dirt surfaces to make them safer rather than just embracing synthetic surfaces. Like the good dirt surfaces, synthetic surfaces aren't going to prevent all breakdowns. I do believe they they prevent a lot of breakdowns or the breakdowns from being so grotesque or fatal though. I need to see more to make a decision on how safe that I think the synthetic surfaces are compared to a good dirt surface. I would imagine that they are about the same.

With that being said, I definitely think that polytrack has purposes on tracks that need an all-weather surface, tracks that have had an unimaginable number of breakdowns who have tried tweaking their dirt surface, or for training purposes. Otherwise, KEEP IT OUT OF THE INDUSTRY!!!

Again, it is far too early in the career of Polytrack to come up with definitive numbers on breakdowns, the fact of the matter as it stands right now is there have been an ENORMOUS amount of career/catastrophic breakdowns on the current dirt surfaces, of that there is no denying. The mere fact something, ANYTHING, is being done to alleviate this trajedy should be applauded. I say lets let the next few years determine the safety to the horses and riders. The races will still be run, gamblers will still lay bets and the games will continue no worse for wear, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I will say that anyone who actually knows horses intimately, ie.. actually is hands on owners, riders etc... will tell you to a person that there is no way you can deny the surface is easier on a horses legs, now whether that translates to better racing in the afternoons is the question.

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I will say that anyone who actually knows horses intimately, ie.. actually is hands on owners, riders etc... will tell you to a person that there is no way you can deny the surface is easier on a horses legs,

I am - and it is actually harder on horse's soft tissue, which is just as crucial to their ability to stay healthy enough to be racehorses than bone conditions and injuries sustained by concussion on dirt....

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I am - and it is actually harder on horse's soft tissue, which is just as crucial to their ability to stay healthy enough to be racehorses than bone conditions and injuries sustained by concussion on dirt....

I completely disagree,the concussion on soft tissues and joints is completely different, it is absorbed much more readily by the entire body, thats why the horses legs are not swelling and stocking up after running on it, they are bouncing over it as opposed to pounding their legs on the dirt.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, but I completely disagree.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I completely disagree,the concussion on soft tissues and joints is completely different, it is absorbed much more readily by the entire body, thats why the horses legs are not swelling and stocking up after running on it, they are bouncing over it as opposed to pounding their legs on the dirt.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, but I completely disagree.

And I completely disagree with you.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

And I completely disagree with you.

And I respectfully with you.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

I completely disagree,the concussion on soft tissues and joints is completely different, it is absorbed much more readily by the entire body, thats why the horses legs are not swelling and stocking up after running on it, they are bouncing over it as opposed to pounding their legs on the dirt.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, but I completely disagree.

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

I still am a traditionalist though, and don't advocate polytrack except in those extreme circumstances and for training tracks.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

It's kind of like swimming in a way...

Swimming is very good for people (and animals) that have had an impactual injury, but the water resistance is tougher on soft tissue. I really don't know how to put it into words, but I disagree with your thought on it...

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I agree with you Larhage. I'm shaking my head thinking about it because I can't figure out how it would be better for concussion, yet worse for soft tissue. I've never had any problem with any one of my horses over the stuff. I can't think of a logical explanation. Although Cunningham Racing is extremely knowledgeable, so I'll give him a chance to explain himself. There is probably something that I am missing...

I still am a traditionalist though, and don't advocate polytrack except in those extreme circumstances and for training tracks.

The more a horse slips, runs off balance, and the track breaks away from him - the more prone he will miss step or over step in ways that cause soft tissue injuries.....Also, I have talked to more than few trainers who wintered at Turfway Park this past winter who came back to CD in the spring and told me that while they had less injuries with horses up front, they incurred far more injuries with horses rear ends.....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....