Curlin/Rachel Alexandra

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by smartbid09

I never thought about that. Thank you Truth

I just care so much about Rachel having the best chance to produce a champion.

Why? Will it confirm her greatness more if she can produce a G1 winner?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Why? Will it confirm her greatness more if she can produce a G1 winner?

yeah, she needs one before zen gets one.

i can't believe how much coverage these two are getting. i wish the media put this much effort into covering actual racing.

[smartbid09]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Why? Will it confirm her greatness more if she can produce a G1 winner?

Hey Freddy

No producing a grade 1 winner will not confirm Rachel's greatness. She confirmed her greatness on the race track.

The reason I care who Rachel is bred to because I feel she should be afforded the best possible opportunity to produce a top quality race horse. Remember just because you get a mare pregnant does not mean she will be able to produce that baby. Many mares lose their foals and thus every breeding opportunity is precious.

In last weeks blood horse they ran an article that explained how most great female race horses were able to produce top quality runners. According to the article, Grade 1 winning filly's/mares have historically produced more top quality horses than non-graded winning filly's/mares.

The article goes on to explain that the top quality mares who were able to produce the best offspring were the ones afforded the opportunity to be bred to proven sires. In the case of the great Toshma, Toshma was not bred to a proven sire, in fact she was bred to a sire who was proven to not produce great offspring. Sadly this meant that her bloodline would not be carried on because she was not able to produce a horse worthy of carrying on her family line.

I just want a talented filly/mare, which no one can deny Rachel of being, to have the best possible opportunity to produce a top quality race horse. Why? Because she deserves that chance. Not to mention this would be the best way for her to pass on her genes. I would love nothing more than to one day see Rachel's great grand children running around on the race track.

Perhaps Rachel will not produce any horse who can win a grade 1, but she certainly deserves the best opportunity to do so in my opinion. This is why I care and this is why I wish she were being bred to a proven sire.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by smartbid09

In the case of the great Toshma, Toshma was not bred to a proven sire, in fact she was bred to a sire who was proven to not produce great offspring. Sadly this meant that her bloodline would not be carried on because she was not able to produce a horse worthy of carrying on her family line.

Tosmah--with an h, was bred to chef-de-race Ribot, certainly a proven sire , after being bred to two nothings prior .

She lived to be 30, but only had 4 foals ...

The Ribot filly died at 4 before producing anything.

Tosmah may have produced nothing capable of carrying on the line, but not necessarily because she was bred thrice to unproven stallions--she simply did not produce much, and the Ribot died, limiting what she did leave for posterity .

It is not known whether had she continued to be bred to stallions of Ribot's ilk or not if she would have generated a legacy based on such an unfortunate and small sample .. .

[smartbid09]

Originally Posted by prudery

Tosmah--with an h, was bred to chef-de-race Ribot, certainly a proven sire , after being bred to two nothings prior .

She lived to be 30, but only had 4 foals ...

The Ribot filly died at 4 before producing anything.

Tosmah may have produced nothing capable of carrying on the line, but not necessarily because she was bred thrice to unproven stallions--she simply did not produce much, and the Ribot died, limiting what she did leave for posterity .

It is not known whether had she continued to be bred to stallions of Ribot's ilk or not if she would have generated a legacy based on such an unfortunate and small sample .. .

Let me clarify than that the blood horse article I alluded to states Tosmah, pardon my previous spelling and thank you for correcting me, was eventually bred to a good sire, but she never produced anything of any note by that sire. (As you state she only produced one foal by Ribot.)

The point I was making in my response to Freedy however was not that Tosmah wasn't bred to a good sire eventually.

The point I was making was that there is no guarantee that Rachel, or any female horse for that matter, will ever produce a foal. Rachel may only produce a foal her first few times and than stop producing - as Tosmah did. And if this were to be the case I would rather her first few times be with a proven sire since than she was be accorded a better chance to pass on her greatness to future generations.

I used Tosmah as an example to illustrate what the article implied which is if Tosmah had been bred to Ribot in the beginning, who was a proven sire, she would have been more likely to produced a top quality race horse if she were to have his foal.

If Rachel was my horse, which she is not, I would want to bred her to a proven sire and than when and if Curlin were to prove himself as a sire, I would breed Rachel to Curlin.

Rachel only has so many opportunities to produce a foal and each one should be to a horse who would accord her the best chance to produce a top horse. The owners of Tosmah made the mistake of not doing this and though there is no guarantee that Tosmah would have produced a great horse if she was bred to Ribot and had produced his foals in the beginning instead of Convex and Royal I. J. it certainly would have been more likely to have happened that way.

If you disagree please let me know because I would like to know what I am not seeing here if I am wrong in my thought process.

Please respond

[Danzig]

federico tesio said breed the best to the best, and then hope for the best. there's no telling what rachel will produce, or any horse will produce for that matter. it's a crap shoot. i remember that genuine risk was bred to secretariat, everyone was excited about two derby winners producing a foal. it didn't end well, with the foal stillborn. and of course genuine risk ended up star-crossed as a broodmare, producing only two foals.

the thing is, i think it's a shame that we have so few horses sticking around racing that some are reduced to cheering on the breeding process.

[Kingturf]

Originally Posted by Danzig

federico tesio said breed the best to the best, and then hope for the best. there's no telling what rachel will produce, or any horse will produce for that matter. it's a crap shoot. i remember that genuine risk was bred to secretariat, everyone was excited about two derby winners producing a foal. it didn't end well, with the foal stillborn. and of course genuine risk ended up star-crossed as a broodmare, producing only two foals.

the thing is, i think it's a shame that we have so few horses sticking around racing that some are reduced to cheering on the breeding process.

Genuine Reward was one of Genuine Risk foals, never made it to the track and if he did, Bill Mott was to train him. Heard he's standing stud in Wyoming.

Seattle Dancer- half to Seattle Slew(Nijinsky II) went for 13.1 million as a yearling. Made something like 100k on the track...never produced

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kingturf

Seattle Dancer- half to Seattle Slew(Nijinsky II) went for 13.1 million as a yearling. Made something like 100k on the track...never produced

It would have been VERY impressive if he did produce.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Danzig

federico tesio said breed the best to the best, and then hope for the best. there's no telling what rachel will produce, or any horse will produce for that matter. it's a crap shoot. i remember that genuine risk was bred to secretariat, everyone was excited about two derby winners producing a foal. it didn't end well, with the foal stillborn. and of course genuine risk ended up star-crossed as a broodmare, producing only two foals.

the thing is, i think it's a shame that we have so few horses sticking around racing that some are reduced to cheering on the breeding process.

I think we all know you are a huge fan of the breeding process

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I think we all know you are a huge fan of the breeding process

[prudery]

Originally Posted by smartbid09

Let me clarify than that the blood horse article I alluded to states Tosmah, pardon my previous spelling and thank you for correcting me, was eventually bred to a good sire, but she never produced anything of any note by that sire. (As you state she only produced one foal by Ribot.)

The point I was making in my response to Freedy however was not that Tosmah wasn't bred to a good sire eventually.

The point I was making was that there is no guarantee that Rachel, or any female horse for that matter, will ever produce a foal. Rachel may only produce a foal her first few times and than stop producing - as Tosmah did. And if this were to be the case I would rather her first few times be with a proven sire since than she was be accorded a better chance to pass on her greatness to future generations.

I used Tosmah as an example to illustrate what the article implied which is if Tosmah had been bred to Ribot in the beginning, who was a proven sire, she would have been more likely to produced a top quality race horse if she were to have his foal.

If Rachel was my horse, which she is not, I would want to bred her to a proven sire and than when and if Curlin were to prove himself as a sire, I would breed Rachel to Curlin.

Rachel only has so many opportunities to produce a foal and each one should be to a horse who would accord her the best chance to produce a top horse. The owners of Tosmah made the mistake of not doing this and though there is no guarantee that Tosmah would have produced a great horse if she was bred to Ribot and had produced his foals in the beginning instead of Convex and Royal I. J. it certainly would have been more likely to have happened that way.

If you disagree please let me know because I would like to know what I am not seeing here if I am wrong in my thought process.

Please respond

I definately agree that a proven stallion should be first choice for Rachel or any other mare, especially a maiden mare of quality .

Even breeding to the best does not guarantee anything--to whit Lady's Secret who never produced anything of her ability .

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by smartbid09

Hey Freddy

No producing a grade 1 winner will not confirm Rachel's greatness. She confirmed her greatness on the race track.

The reason I care who Rachel is bred to because I feel she should be afforded the best possible opportunity to produce a top quality race horse. Remember just because you get a mare pregnant does not mean she will be able to produce that baby. Many mares lose their foals and thus every breeding opportunity is precious.

In last weeks blood horse they ran an article that explained how most great female race horses were able to produce top quality runners. According to the article, Grade 1 winning filly's/mares have historically produced more top quality horses than non-graded winning filly's/mares.

The article goes on to explain that the top quality mares who were able to produce the best offspring were the ones afforded the opportunity to be bred to proven sires. In the case of the great Toshma, Toshma was not bred to a proven sire, in fact she was bred to a sire who was proven to not produce great offspring. Sadly this meant that her bloodline would not be carried on because she was not able to produce a horse worthy of carrying on her family line.

I just want a talented filly/mare, which no one can deny Rachel of being, to have the best possible opportunity to produce a top quality race horse. Why? Because she deserves that chance. Not to mention this would be the best way for her to pass on her genes. I would love nothing more than to one day see Rachel's great grand children running around on the race track.

Perhaps Rachel will not produce any horse who can win a grade 1, but she certainly deserves the best opportunity to do so in my opinion. This is why I care and this is why I wish she were being bred to a proven sire.

Rachel was brilliant it isnt likely she is going to produce a horse near her abilty. I would suspect she will be bred to Curlin at least one more time before she heads to another stallion. Also consider that her owner isnt going to live as long as she hopefully will and therefore who knows who will own her in the future?

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Rachel was brilliant it isnt likely she is going to produce a horse near her abilty. I would suspect she will be bred to Curlin at least one more time before she heads to another stallion. Also consider that her owner isnt going to live as long as she hopefully will and therefore who knows who will own her in the future?

Jess Jackson maybe, but I would venture to say that as long as Barbara Banke is alive, Rachel isn't going anywhere.

I can only hope that Rachel turns out to be a better mommy than her dam is.

And, if anyone thinks there's too much attention being paid to this, just wait until Zenyatta is bred. Gawd forbid they both have foals of the same sex. The histrionics will NEVER end.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Princess Doreen

Jess Jackson maybe, but I would venture to say that as long as Barbara Banke is alive, Rachel isn't going anywhere.

I can only hope that Rachel turns out to be a better mommy than her dam is.

And, if anyone thinks there's too much attention being paid to this, just wait until Zenyatta is bred. Gawd forbid they both have foals of the same sex. The histrionics will NEVER end.

I have no idea what Jackson's estate calls for when he evidentual passes, nor do I care. One day someone other then Jess is going to make decisions on who she will be bred to and it is likely not to be Hook and Ladder in the Phillipines.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I have no idea what Jackson's estate calls for when he evidentual passes, nor do I care. One day someone other then Jess is going to make decisions on who she will be bred to and it is likely not to be Hook and Ladder in the Phillipines.

It isn't a question of what's in JJ's will. He AND his wife BOTH own Curlin and Rachel. It's joint tenancy - rights of survivor. And, I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to with Hook and Ladder. Veiled sarcasm run amuck.


"Both champion thoroughbreds are owned by Jess Jackson and Barbara Banke's Stonestreet Thoroughbred Holdings."


http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/2...#ixzz1Ehrs1mpV