Twirling Candy Love....

[RockHardTen1985]

He is the best older horse in the country right now, even though at this point its by default because everyone else stinks. Who from the Donn would you take over him? Twirling Candy interests me because I believe he still has a ton of room to improve, and can run well on all surfaces.

[Dahoss]

I think Morning Line is better than Twirling Candy. He has actually shown the ability to withstand serious pace pressure and still run very well. Not saying Twirling Candy can't, but his race was much easier quality wise on Saturday.

I thought it was an encouraging race by I Want Revenge (but how much could he possibly have left?) and Rule ran okay, while moving prematurely. IMO Sidney's Candy is better than Twirling Candy.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I think Morning Line is better than Twirling Candy. He has actually shown the ability to withstand serious pace pressure and still run very well. Not saying Twirling Candy can't, but his race was much easier quality wise on Saturday.

I thought it was an encouraging race by I Want Revenge (but how much could he possibly have left?) and Rule ran okay, while moving prematurely. IMO Sidney's Candy is better than Twirling Candy.

Morning Line is starting to feel like the type of horse who will run well, but not win. Lets not forget, he barley held off super hanger First Dude for his big win. The horse who gunned him down in the Mile is a total slug, and really what is Giant Oak? I defended Morning Line and said I thought he ran as well as anyone both days BC, I also think he ran well Saturday.... Something just does not seem right. Rule was never good IMO, and is not very good now. Sidneys Candy might be better then Twirling, but they both might just be really really good.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Morning Line is starting to feel like the type of horse who will run well, but not win. Lets not forget, he barley held off super hanger First Dude for his big win. The horse who gunned him down in the Mile is a total slug, and really what is Giant Oak? I defended Morning Line and said I thought he ran as well as anyone both days BC, I also think he ran well Saturday.... Something just does not seem right. Rule was never good IMO, and is not very good now. Sidneys Candy might be better then Twirling, but they both might just be really really good.

Does what happen in races matter at all? If Moning Line is in the Strub and Twirling Candy is in the Donn, I think ML jogs and TC probably finishes off the board.

I do think it's hilarious you are picking apart Morning Line's competition while seemingly ignoring Twirling Candy was beating Tweebster in his race.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Does what happen in races matter at all? If Moning Line is in the Strub and Twirling Candy is in the Donn, I think ML jogs and TC probably finishes off the board.

I do think it's hilarious you are picking apart Morning Line's competition while seemingly ignoring Twirling Candy was beating Tweebster in his race.

Im not really picking apart his competition because all the older horses suck, all of them. The problem I have is this.... The last 3 horses Morning Line has lost 2 are all pretty bad IMO. TC is not facing much either, but he is winning and winning easily. The Malibu was not easy, but the number was big. Morning Line is losing to bad horses and not really running fast while doing it.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Im not really picking apart his competition because all the older horses suck, all of them. The problem I have is this.... The last 3 horses Morning Line has lost 2 are all pretty bad IMO. TC is not facing much either, but he is winning and winning easily. The Malibu was not easy, but the number was big. Morning Line is losing to bad horses and not really running fast while doing it.

I'll ask again, does what happens in races matter at all? Pace and trips matter, correct?

Twirling Candy got a 108 Beyer for the Malibu and a 101 for the Strub.

Morning Line got a 104 in the BC, a 103 in the Hal's Hope and a 102 in the Donn.

You're making it seem like Twirling Candy is Beyering in the 120's when he's not at all.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I'll ask again, does what happens in races matter at all? Pace and trips matter, correct?

Twirling Candy got a 108 Beyer for the Malibu and a 101 for the Strub.

Morning Line got a 104 in the BC, a 103 in the Hal's Hope and a 102 in the Donn.

You're making it seem like Twirling Candy is Beyering in the 120's when he's not at all.

Yes I do think it matters. For you to say ML is better you need some sort of reasson for this.... I came back with at least TC is winning races. I went from being a huge ML fan to not trusting him anymore. Its not like Im a ML hater with some biased opinion.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I'll ask again, does what happens in races matter at all? Pace and trips matter, correct?

Twirling Candy got a 108 Beyer for the Malibu and a 101 for the Strub.

Morning Line got a 104 in the BC, a 103 in the Hal's Hope and a 102 in the Donn.

You're making it seem like Twirling Candy is Beyering in the 120's when he's not at all.

If he would have won with a 118 BSF against the garbage he ran against would your opinion have been different? If so why?

Morning line ran the last 3f's in 38 lets not all get wet the the panties because he was able to stay the 9fs in the manner he did. These GP figs never hold up later in the year

[Kasept]

I'm bewildered as to Giant Oak suffering by general comparison in the analysis going on here. I'm going to assume that is a function of our complete unfamiliarity with horses staying around until they fully mature these days. There was a time when a horse that reached his peak at 5 or 6 was appreciated simply as a late developer and gleefully welcomed to the handicap ranks.

For those who have never seen one race much past their sophomore year, a horse doesn't reach physical maturity until age 4. It's odd that a horse would run a career best figure in his first start at age 5, (105 Beyer in Giant Oak's case), and be dismissed as fodder in a discussion trying to underwhelm Morning Line's foes.

I don't get it. Everyone bemoans horses taken to the shed too quickly, and yet when one stays around, Beyering 100+ in his last three races run between 9f-10f in traditionally serious Handicap Division races, he's scoffed at as an example of how bad the elder males are currently.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I'm bewildered as to Giant Oak suffering by general comparison in the analysis going on here. I'm going to assume that is a function of our complete unfamiliarity with horses staying around until they fully mature these days. There was a time when a horse that reached his peak at 5 or 6 was appreciated simply as a late developer and gleefully welcomed to the handicap ranks.

For those who have never seen one race much past their sophomore year, a horse doesn't reach physical maturity until age 4. It's odd that a horse would run a career best figure in his first start at age 5, (105 Beyer in Giant Oak's case), and be dismissed as fodder in a discussion trying to underwhelm Morning Line's foes.

I don't get it. Everyone bemoans horses taken to the shed too quickly, and yet when one stays around, Beyering 100+ in his last three races run between 9f-10f in traditionally serious Handicap Division races, he's scoffed at as an example of how bad the elder males are currently.

It's probably because his last non DQ win before Saturday was in May of 2009, on the grass.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I'm bewildered as to Giant Oak suffering by general comparison in the analysis going on here. I'm going to assume that is a function of our complete unfamiliarity with horses staying around until they fully mature these days. There was a time when a horse that reached his peak at 5 or 6 was appreciated simply as a late developer and gleefully welcomed to the handicap ranks.

For those who have never seen one race much past their sophomore year, a horse doesn't reach physical maturity until age 4. It's odd that a horse would run a career best figure in his first start at age 5, (105 Beyer in Giant Oak's case), and be dismissed as fodder in a discussion trying to underwhelm Morning Line's foes.

I don't get it. Everyone bemoans horses taken to the shed too quickly, and yet when one stays around, Beyering 100+ in his last three races run between 9f-10f in traditionally serious Handicap Division races, he's scoffed at as an example of how bad the elder males are currently.

He might be getting good now, maybe he will be really good. Up to Saturday what had he done to make him any type of a player in this division? At the begining of last year he was just bad. He started the year running 3rd,5th,3rd,6th,4th and 5th in his first 6 races. Then maybe he got a little better, but he hangs badly twice, both times under 2-1 in the betting. Im not sure what about this horse made him any good coming into Saturday. Maybe now we can say he is OK because he won the Donn.
Not to mention his last win was about 2 years ago on grass.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I'm bewildered as to Giant Oak suffering by general comparison in the analysis going on here. I'm going to assume that is a function of our complete unfamiliarity with horses staying around until they fully mature these days. There was a time when a horse that reached his peak at 5 or 6 was appreciated simply as a late developer and gleefully welcomed to the handicap ranks.

For those who have never seen one race much past their sophomore year, a horse doesn't reach physical maturity until age 4. It's odd that a horse would run a career best figure in his first start at age 5, (105 Beyer in Giant Oak's case), and be dismissed as fodder in a discussion trying to underwhelm Morning Line's foes.

I don't get it. Everyone bemoans horses taken to the shed too quickly, and yet when one stays around, Beyering 100+ in his last three races run between 9f-10f in traditionally serious Handicap Division races, he's scoffed at as an example of how bad the elder males are currently.

Nice generalization horses get better with age? Giant Oaks a bum and needs the 4 horses on the lead to ding dong to suck on by. I am surprised at you Giant Oak? Tell me how many Pletcherized 3 year olds have come off the Derby trail to be Handicap animals? Should we expect I Want Revenge to season with age? What do you make of the 38 sec last 3f's?

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I'm bewildered as to Giant Oak suffering by general comparison in the analysis going on here. I'm going to assume that is a function of our complete unfamiliarity with horses staying around until they fully mature these days. There was a time when a horse that reached his peak at 5 or 6 was appreciated simply as a late developer and gleefully welcomed to the handicap ranks.

For those who have never seen one race much past their sophomore year, a horse doesn't reach physical maturity until age 4. It's odd that a horse would run a career best figure in his first start at age 5, (105 Beyer in Giant Oak's case), and be dismissed as fodder in a discussion trying to underwhelm Morning Line's foes.

I don't get it. Everyone bemoans horses taken to the shed too quickly, and yet when one stays around, Beyering 100+ in his last three races run between 9f-10f in traditionally serious Handicap Division races, he's scoffed at as an example of how bad the elder males are currently.

You must spend enough time on here to know that all horses are slow and nobody is any good at all. Even the ridiculously fast horses from the last ten years are often mocked for only beating that crops bad horses. There is no positivity whatsoever. Damn shame too, this is one fun sport.

[knickslions2]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Morning Line is starting to feel like the type of horse who will run well, but not win. Lets not forget, he barley held off super hanger First Dude for his big win. The horse who gunned him down in the Mile is a total slug, and really what is Giant Oak? I defended Morning Line and said I thought he ran as well as anyone both days BC, I also think he ran well Saturday.... Something just does not seem right. Rule was never good IMO, and is not very good now. Sidneys Candy might be better then Twirling, but they both might just be really really good.

The Donn was pretty much a great setup for Giant Oak. I thought he was a pretty good bet to win. Its hard to pick between the Candy's. They are both pretty solid horses. Twirling just seems to have more potential in the long run. I doubt we will ever see them in the same race. It's going to be a fun year.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I think Morning Line is better than Twirling Candy. He has actually shown the ability to withstand serious pace pressure and still run very well. Not saying Twirling Candy can't, but his race was much easier quality wise on Saturday.

I thought it was an encouraging race by I Want Revenge (but how much could he possibly have left?) and Rule ran okay, while moving prematurely. IMO Sidney's Candy is better than Twirling Candy.

Come on man that was a bad bad group in the Donn. Where is Morning Line's fast race?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Come on man that was a bad bad group in the Donn. Where is Morning Line's fast race?

They are all bad Freddy. That is the point. You guys are getting excited because a horse had a dream trip and crushed Tweebster and Make Music For me.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

They are all bad Freddy. That is the point. You guys are getting excited because a horse had a dream trip and crushed Tweebster and Make Music For me.

My point was they are all bad, but at least TC is winning races.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

They are all bad Freddy. That is the point. You guys are getting excited because a horse had a dream trip and crushed Tweebster and Make Music For me.

A dream trip for that horse is unpressed on a loose lead not galloping a half under restraint. This is the flaw I think many make. If that horse wanted too he could have run a bigger race by simply burying bad horses and running off.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by freddymo

A dream trip for that horse is unpressed on a loose lead not galloping a half under restraint. This is the flaw I think many make. If that horse wanted too he could have run a bigger race by simply burying bad horses and running off.

A dream trip for every horse is unpressed galloping on a loose lead.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

A dream trip for that horse is unpressed on a loose lead not galloping a half under restraint. This is the flaw I think many make. If that horse wanted too he could have run a bigger race by simply burying bad horses and running off.

Hah! Who's flip flopping now?

This morning he was rating kindly from all the "learning" he'd done by skipping the BC Classic after having his tail shoved between his legs in the Goodwood by the West Coast version of Giant Oak...Richard's Kid.