All time best horses

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I understand why you posted this so I will bite. Zenyatta at 11? I am not sure she is the 11th best filly of all time if we are going to include horses from the 1800's. I'm anxious to hear why she is better than Kelso or Dr Fager who doesnt even make the top 20????

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

So she is ranked as the 11th best horse of all time because she was a closer and almost was undefeated? Wouldn't your case have more merit had she taken on the miserable group of older horses in the country more than twice? I understand that it simply an opinion however when you examine her record there are very few really historically signifigant performances.

[Cannon Shell]

Zenyatta is like Andy Pettitte. Pettitte is the all time winningist playoff pitcher in baseball history. He was a really good pitcher. But no one is calling Andy Pettitte the 11th or 12th best pitcher in history.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So she is ranked as the 11th best horse of all time because she was a closer and almost was undefeated? Wouldn't your case have more merit had she taken on the miserable group of older horses in the country more than twice? I understand that it simply an opinion however when you examine her record there are very few really historically signifigant performances.

I think you nailed it when you said "miserable group of older horses", not sure racing against the males those years would really elevate her that much. I put a lot of stock in certain races...the Arc in France, the Triple Crown and the BCC, I have Tiznow at #34 because of his BCC wins (otherwise nothing that special), my lowest rated TC winner is Sir Barton at #51, and his effort was before the TC was even named.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I think you nailed it when you said "miserable group of older horses", not sure racing against the males those years would really elevate her that much. I put a lot of stock in certain races...the Arc in France, the Triple Crown and the BCC, I have Tiznow at #34 because of his BCC wins (otherwise nothing that special), my lowest rated TC winner is Sir Barton at #51, and his effort was before the TC was even named.

Using that logic how is Tiznow rated below Zenyatta? Didn't he win the Classic twice? Are her narrow, all out wins over the weak fillies that she faced more impressive?

When you sit down and write down her list of accomplishments and compare to others she is usually dwarfed in achievment. She won a bunch of the same old, synthetic races in CA over and over. The Apple Blossom is NOT big race in this country.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Using that logic how is Tiznow rated below Zenyatta? Didn't he win the Classic twice? Are her narrow, all out wins over the weak fillies that she faced more impressive?

When you sit down and write down her list of accomplishments and compare to others she is usually dwarfed in achievment. She won a bunch of the same old, synthetic races in CA over and over. The Apple Blossom is NOT big race in this country.

Tiznow was 15/8-4-2. Zenyatta ran as hard as she needed to, margain of victory may not be impressive but her races certainly were. In a way, she reminds one of Kincsem who would often spot the field many lengths while grazing as the race began only to run them down at will.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

In a way, she reminds one of Kincsem

True. They both raced against the local farmers' donkeys a bunch of times and people made a big deal out of them emerging victorious.

[DaTruth]

The ancient horses get extra credit because they raced at longer distances. As great as Secretariat was, he was unproven at four miles.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

onion # 72

[Cannon Shell]

I've got Joe the Dude at 115 with a bullet

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

who is the best fla bred, ny bred, pa bred ..

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

But her running style was not disadvantaged on the synthetic surfaces in which she compiled her record.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

But her running style was not disadvantaged on the synthetic surfaces in which she compiled her record.

What difference does it mak how you run when you run in inferior races? Is what I ultimately would ask.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What difference does it mak how you run when you run in inferior races? Is what I ultimately would ask.

I don't consider the BCC an inferior race.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I don't consider the BCC an inferior race.

What about the 17 other mostly inferior races?

[Cannon Shell]

The funny thing about Zenyatta is that she is stricty an Americn vice. The year end Int'l weights had her at 125 which was 3 pounds less than Quality Road and Blme.

[randallscott35]

I rank Blame 11th.

[miraja2]

Zenyatta 7 spots in front of Affirmed huh?

The idea that Zenyatta would have posted a record as good as Affirmed did running against Alydar, Spectacular Bid, Exceller, Seattle Slew, Coastal and Sensitive Prince the way Affirmed did strikes me as beyond impossible.

But if we don't look at it that way and just looked at who accomplished more on the racetrack in their career by winning big races etc.....oh wait.....Affirmed should still be WAY ahead of Zenyatta.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I rank Blame 11th.

So what are your other 18 top ranked horses?

[Sightseek]

Evening Attire is high on my list. He was really, really old for a racehorse and came from behind and still won. That has to mean something.