Spectacular Bid VS Seattle Slew

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

That - and race horses were like almost extinct when he raced.

I have my doubts Man O' War even deserved my own #15 overall rating I gave him yesterday - Discovery, a horse fairly close to his time peroid, is a far more impressive horse to me.

The problem is that you look at lists like the one Bloodhorse did and see Man O' War #1 VS Discovery #37 ... and, in general, Man O' War seemed to have the greater reputation of people in the press at that time who saw them both.

I happen to be one who supports MOW at #1 (granted he's my all-time favorite horse), so I don't have any problem with his reputation among racing people. If people want to diminish him because of the foal crops, that's fine - I can't argue with them - but it's not an argument I find favor and, in truth, it's nothing that can be proved or disproved.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I happen to be one who supports MOW at #1 (granted he's my all-time favorite horse), so I don't have any problem with his reputation among racing people. If people want to diminish him because of the foal crops, that's fine - I can't argue with them - but it's not an argument I find favor and, in truth, it's nothing that can be proved or disproved.

The Easy Goer-Sunday Silence crop was over 30.5 times larger than Man O' War's crop.

It's like comparing the human population of New York City to the 30.5 times smaller human population of Henderson Nevada.

Other than Sir Barton (who never won again) Man O' War competed against 3yo competition I felt was extremely suspect.

I think everyone is so in awe of his many "never asked" wins with large winning margins in fast raw final times. A lot of those wins in match races where his opponent is being used up than eased up behind him. From looking at charts - he was a little faster horse than I thought he'd be .. but his races were nowhere near as fast as a race like Discovery's Brooklyn Handicap win - which was probably in the low 130's.

In Discovery's next race - he showed how match race form can flatter a horse. He beat a proper top older male who had just won the ultra rich Big Cap - by 30 lengths in a match race. Not some bum who was running in case Man O' War's rider fell off. Basically - once a horse is used up and beat in a match race - a smart rider is just going to pull him up. Easier to pull up a used up loser than a razor sharp champion who isn't getting pressured and wants to run.

[Danzig]

i read that the man o war travers is still the fastest six furlong time for the winning horse. a lot of man o war stuff is suspect, all we have is what's left us in books. i doubt anyone is still alive who saw him run. but you'd have to think there's something to a horse that would cause people to still use him as a measuring stick decades (and soon enough, a century) later.
all you can go by is time, weights, starts in an abbreviated season (i believe man's first start was the preakness-his starts were close together to get 21 races in two years, and start that late)....the fact that the 'capper was going to put more weight on MOW than had been put on a horse before, causing his retirement.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i read that the man o war travers is still the fastest six furlong time for the winning horse. a lot of man o war stuff is suspect, all we have is what's left us in books. i doubt anyone is still alive who saw him run. but you'd have to think there's something to a horse that would cause people to still use him as a measuring stick decades (and soon enough, a century) later.
all you can go by is time, weights, starts in an abbreviated season (i believe man's first start was the preakness-his starts were close together to get 21 races in two years, and start that late)....the fact that the 'capper was going to put more weight on MOW than had been put on a horse before, causing his retirement.

That's how I look at it - the handicapper, by the way, was Walter Vosburgh.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig

a lot of man o war stuff is suspect, all we have is what's left us in books.

We still have a lot of charts, past performances, and columns from respected writers of the day - the only thing missing is film of his actual races.

Man O' War's connections ducked Exterminator all the time. Man O' War was weighted at 114lbs for the Suburban - getting a 15lbs break from the high weight at 129lbs. They ducked facing older comeptition - even with the scales in their favor - for attempts at setting speed records or winning important 3yo races all year.

Racing against a stop-watch over tracks that often played much faster than par the day he ran - that doesn't impress me anyway.

Here is a cut of a column from Jan of his 4yo season - famous turf writer John Hervey calls the match-race with Sir Barton a "circus"



In terms of setting track records and world recorlds - Man O' War was Babe Ruth .. I'm not even sure Swaps, Dr. Fager, Secretariat, and Spectacular Bid can quite compare with him in that regard. However, to rate as the greatest horse of all-time, you should have to prove a lot against the best possible competition. Winning a silly match race and owning a crop of just 1,680 total horses isn't impressive at all to say the least.