Graded Stakes and Polytrack

[repent]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

This is one of the most ridiculous thoughts I have ever read. You don't grade a race by what surface it is run on. You also don't grade a race based on your ability to handicap it. Also, PolyTrack is not to be compared to dirt at all. It is an alternative surface to dirt and turf racing. Basically it is a 3rd surface. Of course some horses will like it and some wont. Just like some horses love a sloppy track and some like a fast track. As far as handicapping PolyTrack there has been more winners that come from behind than horses that leads the entire way. Handicapping PolyTrack was very challenging to me. Like Oracle has pointed out several times dirt form doesnt always equate to the same form on PolyTrack. Like DaHoss has said that it is too early to make any suggestions when it comes to PolyTrack. At Turfway, tons of early speed won races in the Fall where in the Spring you didn't have too many. I like the synthetic surface and I like dirt and I like turf surface. All I can say is that the racing at Keeneland this year is by far the most exciting in terms of the finish of each race than at any other time I can remember. Almost every race you have 3-6 lead changes whereas in the past you would have a horse that wins going wire to wire or in the 2nd spot.

Again, PolyTrack is not for ever race venue and nor do I want it in every race venue. I want all 3 types of surfaces. We can have stars at every stage. The stars of dirt, the stars of turf and the stars of a synthetic surface. This is only going to be good for racing. It adds value and excitment when done right. I would be appaled to see Churchill, Gulfstream or Saratoga switch to a synthetic surface. Turfway, Woodbine and Keeneland needed it, not sure how I feel about Cali mandating it.

you can believe that if you want.
but the reality is that it has replaced the main track at several major racetracks.
its not like they replaced the turf course or they added a 3rd course to KEE.
they took away the dirt and its always going to be aligned with dirt.

Im not saying that you change the grading of the stakes b/c they are run on polytrack.
Im saying you do have to reavaluate the status of each race on an individual basis.
when you do that, several KEE races have lost some of their importance.
when and if this diminishes the quality of the fields, then I hope they are downgraded.
I would hate to see the Blue Grass remain a Grade 1 year after year when it loses its place as a key KY Derby prep.
and it will happen.
how many top 3YOs will prep in the Blue Grass by 2008?
Im guessing none. the purse will make it an attractive spot, but Im guessing you will see mostly a field of turf horses and failed dirt horses.


Repent

Originally Posted by repent

you can believe that if you want.
but the reality is that it has replaced the main track at several major racetracks.
its not like they replaced the turf course or they added a 3rd course to KEE.
they took away the dirt and its always going to be aligned with dirt.

Im not saying that you change the grading of the stakes b/c they are run on polytrack.
Im saying you do have to reavaluate the status of each race on an individual basis.
when you do that, several KEE races have lost some of their importance.
when and if this diminishes the quality of the fields, then I hope they are downgraded.
I would hate to see the Blue Grass remain a Grade 1 year after year when it loses its place as a key KY Derby prep.
and it will happen.
how many top 3YOs will prep in the Blue Grass by 2008?
Im guessing none. the purse will make it an attractive spot, but Im guessing you will see mostly a field of turf horses and failed dirt horses.


Repent

I see what you are saying but you cannot Grade races as preps to other Graded races. That doesn't make sense. You have to seperate the thought pattern that the Blue Grass is a Grade I only because it is considered a prep to the Derby. A race is Graded based on the field it gets. If you get the top 3 year old turf runners in the country to run in the Blue Grass should be graded less because these horses arent going to the Derby? That doesnt make sense.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I see what you are saying but you cannot Grade races as preps to other Graded races. That doesn't make sense. You have to seperate the thought pattern that the Blue Grass is a Grade I only because it is considered a prep to the Derby. A race is Graded based on the field it gets. If you get the top 3 year old turf runners in the country to run in the Blue Grass should be graded less because these horses arent going to the Derby? That doesnt make sense.

i don't feel it's a gr 1 because of its prep status. but it's retained it's grading due to successes achieved since the bluegrass, in the derby as well as other top races. if lesser horses start showing up while the top horses go elsewhere, it will lose it's status.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i don't feel it's a gr 1 because of its prep status. but it's retained it's grading due to successes achieved since the bluegrass, in the derby as well as other top races. if lesser horses start showing up while the top horses go elsewhere, it will lose it's status.

As well as it should. But if you get top turfers in the race instead of top dirt horses then it shouldnt lose its Grade I status. If you get a bunch of maiden and claiming horses in the race then the Grade I status should be loss. I dont think the field quality will diminish all that much.

[SniperSB23]

I just don't get it. It isn't that difficult a surface to cap. Turf horses and dirt horses like it and it is tough to win on the front, that is about all you need to know to cap it. The top three in the Lane's End were the three best horses in the race. In the Perryville the horse that Baffert had been high on all year finally had his coming out party, I'd be shocked if he returns to dirt and isn't successful. Three of the four best coming in finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th with the other being Latent Heat who kicks butt in easy allowances but can't run a lick when he enters a stakes race and is actually challenged. The Spinster was won by a very good turf filly and Happy Ticket would have had second if she wasn't cutoff in the stretch. Spun Sugar is the closest to a top level stakes horse not taking to poly but even her figures are all over the place so you never know what Spun Sugar will show up. She'll probably come back and win the Distaff just cause that is the way she is. The Alcibiades ran much more to form than the Frizette did. Any other stakes I am forgetting? Where are all the horses that are really good on dirt and not on polytrack?

To me capping the poly isn't the hard part. The hard part is figuring which of these horses that have only run on poly, like Her Majesty, are dirt horses and which are turf horses.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I just don't get it. It isn't that difficult a surface to cap. Turf horses and dirt horses like it and it is tough to win on the front, that is about all you need to know to cap it. The top three in the Lane's End were the three best horses in the race. In the Perryville the horse that Baffert had been high on all year finally had his coming out party, I'd be shocked if he returns to dirt and isn't successful. Three of the four best coming in finished 2nd, 3rd, and 4th with the other being Latent Heat who kicks butt in easy allowances but can't run a lick when he enters a stakes race and is actually challenged. The Spinster was won by a very good turf filly and Happy Ticket would have had second if she wasn't cutoff in the stretch. Spun Sugar is the closest to a top level stakes horse not taking to poly but even her figures are all over the place so you never know what Spun Sugar will show up. She'll probably come back and win the Distaff just cause that is the way she is. The Alcibiades ran much more to form than the Frizette did. Any other stakes I am forgetting? Where are all the horses that are really good on dirt and not on polytrack?

To me capping the poly isn't the hard part. The hard part is figuring which of these horses that have only run on poly, like Her Majesty, are dirt horses and which are turf horses.

You might be the biggest redboarder who ever lived, and I've lost all respect for you.
Your address is 123 afterthefact lane

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You might be the biggest redboarder who ever lived, and I've lost all respect for you.
Your address is 123 afterthefact lane

What the hell are you talking about and what do you disagree with? I posted on here before the Lane's End that Great Hunter was a better horse than Circular Quay. You know that. How is that redboarding?

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

What the hell are you talking about and what do you disagree with? I posted on here before the Lane's End that Great Hunter was a better horse than Circular Quay. You know that. How is that redboarding?

The Spinster was won by a very good turf filly? LOL!!!!
And lets see if Great Hunter is better than CQ in the BC.
I promise to remind you daily after he CQ feeds GH his nuts for lunch.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You might be the biggest redboarder who ever lived, and I've lost all respect for you.
Your address is 123 afterthefact lane

See, this is the problem with this place. You got tons good to say oracle but instead decide to rip someone for no good reason... how exactly is this redboarding? he's stating his opinion on the stuff, i don't see anywhere that indicates gloating or boasting.

Too many know-it-alls at this joint.

Originally Posted by philcski

See, this is the problem with this place. You got tons good to say oracle but instead decide to rip someone for no good reason... how exactly is this redboarding? he's stating his opinion on the stuff, i don't see anywhere that indicates gloating or boasting.

Too many know-it-alls at this joint.

Any time you wanna match me in a knowledge fest you just have at it.
Any subject, any time, any place. I'll mulch you into dust.
And you can bring any ten friends you want with you.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You might be the biggest redboarder who ever lived, and I've lost all respect for you.
Your address is 123 afterthefact lane

That is just downright ridiculous.

Sniper is pointing out that the non-speed class horses for the most part are winning the races at Keeneland...Nowhere, besides the PRE-race discussion thread on this forum and on another forum where he selected PRE-race those particular horses did he ever say he benefited off them. It's called discussing a new surface, rather than stamping your feet and saying you're just not going to cap it.

[repent]

it was not my original point,
but I do have a question.

when stakes do change surface, dont they generally get downgraded.
was this not the case with the Laurel Futurity recently?
or am I not remembering correctly?


Repent

[repent]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I see what you are saying but you cannot Grade races as preps to other Graded races. That doesn't make sense. You have to seperate the thought pattern that the Blue Grass is a Grade I only because it is considered a prep to the Derby. A race is Graded based on the field it gets. If you get the top 3 year old turf runners in the country to run in the Blue Grass should be graded less because these horses arent going to the Derby? That doesnt make sense.

no,
but I doubt you get top 3YO turf horses to show.
all I am saying is that when the fields for certain KEE and Holypark races start to suffer, the committee makes the approprate changes.


Repent

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by repent

you can believe that if you want.
but the reality is that it has replaced the main track at several major racetracks.
its not like they replaced the turf course or they added a 3rd course to KEE.
they took away the dirt and its always going to be aligned with dirt.

Im not saying that you change the grading of the stakes b/c they are run on polytrack.
Im saying you do have to reavaluate the status of each race on an individual basis.
when you do that, several KEE races have lost some of their importance.
when and if this diminishes the quality of the fields, then I hope they are downgraded.
I would hate to see the Blue Grass remain a Grade 1 year after year when it loses its place as a key KY Derby prep.
and it will happen.
how many top 3YOs will prep in the Blue Grass by 2008?
Im guessing none. the purse will make it an attractive spot, but Im guessing you will see mostly a field of turf horses and failed dirt horses.


Repent

if the level of horses entered drops, the grading will drop. all races are evaluated each year.
poly is a whole new ball game. it's a third surface. it's not dirt, so really how could a race keep it's grading if it's no longer the same race? guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by repent

you can believe that if you want.
but the reality is that it has replaced the main track at several major racetracks.
its not like they replaced the turf course or they added a 3rd course to KEE.
they took away the dirt and its always going to be aligned with dirt.

Im not saying that you change the grading of the stakes b/c they are run on polytrack.
Im saying you do have to reavaluate the status of each race on an individual basis.
when you do that, several KEE races have lost some of their importance.
when and if this diminishes the quality of the fields, then I hope they are downgraded.
I would hate to see the Blue Grass remain a Grade 1 year after year when it loses its place as a key KY Derby prep.
and it will happen.
how many top 3YOs will prep in the Blue Grass by 2008?
Im guessing none. the purse will make it an attractive spot, but Im guessing you will see mostly a field of turf horses and failed dirt horses.


Repent

As long as trainers think the surface is safe, I don't think they will have a problem prepping for big races on the polytrack. I don't think the field in the Bluegrass will suffer at all. One of the main things a trainer is looking for in a prep race is a race that they think their horse will come out of in one piece and be able to move forward from. Doug O' Neil was going to run Lava Man on the turf as a prep for the BC Classic. He ended up changing his mind because the Goodwood came up much easier than the grass race he was looking at.

I really don't see the quality of the field suffering in the Bluegrass at all. In fact, some guys may even be more likely to prep in the Bluegrass because of the polytrack. If they have a good horse who is starting to get a little sore come April, I think they would be more likely to run in the Bluegrass beacsue of the general belief that polytrack is a little more forgiving that dirt.

I don't see any disadvantage to prepping in the Bluegrass Stakes unless you have a horse coming from Southern California who has never run on regular dirt. A horse who has never run on regular dirt would be at disadvantge in the Ky Derby because there isn't much kickback on polytracks so the horse would be getting dirt in his face for the first time in the Ky Derby. I think that would be a big disadvantage. Not only that, if your horse has never run on regular dirt, you don't even know if he will like it.