A Sad Day For Racing

[westcoastinvader]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Who cares?

I know nothing about you, but I picture you as a pasty white, pudgy young man sitting alone in a disheveled apartment with two day old skid marks in your underwear.

I hope you gamble better than you humanly interact.

And I hope my vision is way more wrong than right.

[ateamstupid]

Later westcoast.

[notyep59]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Later westcoast.

what does this mean? i hope it doesn't mean he got darted. just wondering

[dean smith]

Darted? For that? No, that can't be. That would be the worst flag of all-time.

[Duvalier]

Wow...he got banned for that?

[ateamstupid]

It's not for that. It's been for his constant political flaming in The Paddock and instigating. He's not banned, he's in the penalty box.

[notyep59]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

It's not for that. It's been for his constant political flaming in The Paddock and instigating. He's not banned, he's in the penalty box.

since he is in the penalty box, i don't know if he can read this or not, but i would like to say that i think he's lucky for not being banned since he called you the "dumbest person in the history of human beings".
oh, wait.....


was that him?

[Dahoss]

Just so no one thinks I had anything to do with the penalty box, I didn't. I don't agree with it and don't really see why he was put there. I do think it's worth going back and getting it all out one last time, because this is going to be my last post on Zenyatta and HOY.

My biggest issue here is apparently logic has been thrown out the window. I understand we all view the game differently. Some are fans first and never bet, some bet sometimes, weekend warriors and people that make a living playing. There is room for all of us (and hopefully more), but I do think if you are going to have an opinion, you should at least be able to back it up somehow. Otherwise what is the point of having one? And by backing it up I mean supplying either facts or an arguement that makes sense.

One thing that has become apparent is somehow this became some kind of east vs west thing and it's totally not. Who cares where a horse is from? Another thing is no matter what a "Zenyatta hater" says, it always somehow gets distorted. We said we wanted to see her do more this year. That turned into she needed to face only males, ship multiple times and run in NY. It's just not true and further demonstrates that logic has been thrown out the window. Here's a good example....

Originally Posted by westcoastinvader

Blame paid about a nearly full $10 in his Stephen Foster win this year.

Pretty sure Secretariat, Seattle Slew.....or Zenyatta rarely returned same.


Then Blame won a race at Aqueduct, and another race in New York.


Then lost a race in New York.

Then, barely triumphed over the undefeated Zenyatta in The Classic.


This voting really isn't that complicated, folks.

Well, Blame never ran at Aqueduct. Not that it matters if he did, but the implication is that Aqueduct is somehow not good enough for a HOY candidate. Yet it's the people from the east coast that are arrogant. And if you notice in the post, running in NY seems to be some sort of negative. Well, like it or not the top races for handicap horses in the summer and fall are in NY. Blame was running in the top races for handicap horses. Blame paid $10 in the Foster. Is that a negative? He was 2nd choice in the race.

So when I bring it up, this is the answer...

Originally Posted by westcoastinvader

I've been to probably 30+ race tracks across America and Canada. I've never been to Aqueduct. It's not one I've ever wanted to check off my list.

Seriously, if there is something at Aqueduct I should see, let me know. I'll be sure to go. I'm a sucker for nostalgia and history, as any Hialeah fan in 2011 of course would be. I've made Belmont for several "Belmont Stakes," the first being Seattle Slew's win.

Okay, I'll admit in misreading something last night about Blame and Aqueduct.

I just don't see or buy that Garrett Gomez aboard Blame for a 4-1 record in his 2010 races was all that special.

Seriously, who cares how many tracks someone has been to? What does it have to do with the discussion or the obvious error in the post? but he's right, Blame's year wasn't all that special. Neither was Zenyatta's if you look at the races, who she faced and what they ended up doing. There is no way someone can be honest and say Zenyatta faced better competition than Blame did in 2010. There is no way someone can say Zenyatta beat better competition than Blame did. It's just not possible. The only arguement we hear is she did more for the game. That's a chickenshit cop out. I have yet to see someone put forth an arguement that what Zenyatta did on track was better than Blame...because you can't.

I think awarding Zenyatta HOY sets a bad precedent. Her connections knew that by running in the campaign they chose, they needed to win the Classic in order to be deserving of HOY. She didn't. She ran well, but in a game where inches separates millions of dollars, she fell inches short, to a horse that had a better year on track than she did. i don't like seeing the sport turn into a popularity contest. It isn't American Idol. it's better than that and we should expect better than that. It's not about who has more fans on Facebook. It's about what you do on the track.

She didn't have to travel or beat males every race. But there were races in her backyard that she was eligible for, that would have tested her and they avoided them. The funny thing is I'm almost positive she would have won them. But they didn't try. They avoided top competition to protect a streak and were rewarded for it. Had she just ran in one of those races against males during the year, I would think she is deserving. but she didn't.

If people think that she had was deserving of HOY based on what she did on track this year, fine. But I urge you to go through the history of the award and tell me how her year stacks up with other winners. I'll save you the time....it doesn't stack up well. She was a fantastic horse. She was an amazingly consistent horse. Her run in the BC this year was exciting and made for a great race. But she didn't deserve HOY. The horse that beat her...that beat better, that faced better deserved the award.

Originally Posted by westcoastinvader

I know nothing about you, but I picture you as a pasty white, pudgy young man sitting alone in a disheveled apartment with two day old skid marks in your underwear.

Is there something wrong with sitting alone in two day old skid marks? If there is, i don't ever want to be right.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Seriously, who cares how many tracks someone has been to? What does it have to do with the discussion or the obvious error in the post? but he's right, Blame's year wasn't all that special. Neither was Zenyatta's if you look at the races, who she faced and what they ended up doing. There is no way someone can be honest and say Zenyatta faced better competition than Blame did in 2010. There is no way someone can say Zenyatta beat better competition than Blame did. It's just not possible. The only arguement we hear is she did more for the game. That's a chickenshit cop out. I have yet to see someone put forth an arguement that what Zenyatta did on track was better than Blame...because you can't.

I think awarding Zenyatta HOY sets a bad precedent. Her connections knew that by running in the campaign they chose, they needed to win the Classic in order to be deserving of HOY. She didn't. She ran well, but in a game where inches separates millions of dollars, she fell inches short, to a horse that had a better year on track than she did. i don't like seeing the sport turn into a popularity contest. It isn't American Idol. it's better than that and we should expect better than that. It's not about who has more fans on Facebook. It's about what you do on the track.

She didn't have to travel or beat males every race. But there were races in her backyard that she was eligible for, that would have tested her and they avoided them. The funny thing is I'm almost positive she would have won them. But they didn't try. They avoided top competition to protect a streak and were rewarded for it. Had she just ran in one of those races against males during the year, I would think she is deserving. but she didn't.

If people think that she had was deserving of HOY based on what she did on track this year, fine. But I urge you to go through the history of the award and tell me how her year stacks up with other winners. I'll save you the time....it doesn't stack up well. She was a fantastic horse. She was an amazingly consistent horse. Her run in the BC this year was exciting and made for a great race. But she didn't deserve HOY. The horse that beat her...that beat better, that faced better deserved the award.

I agree with a lot of what you said here, and yet I'm still glad Zenyatta got HOY. I don't feel it's either sad or terrible to take "body of work" into consideration. There's plenty to NOT like about Zenyatta's 2010 campaign. But, Zenyatta's connections DID bring her back and they DID run in the Apple Blossom, announcing it early enough for any mare in the country to challenge her. They DID run in the BC Classic, finishing a close enough second to take nearly everyone's breath away who watched the race.

If Blame had run more than 5 races, I might feel differently. But his campaign did not not blow me away.

All this lamenting the future meaning of the awards is an over-reaction, IMO. The award was given to a charismatic 19-1 mare with a 1st and a (close) 2nd in successive BC Classics, I don't think we will have to face a similar situation again in our lifetime.

--Dunbar

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I agree with a lot of what you said here, and yet I'm still glad Zenyatta got HOY. I don't feel it's either sad or terrible to take "body of work" into consideration. There's plenty to NOT like about Zenyatta's 2010 campaign. But, Zenyatta's connections DID bring her back and they DID run in the Apple Blossom, announcing it early enough for any mare in the country to challenge her. They DID run in the BC Classic, finishing a close enough second to take nearly everyone's breath away who watched the race.

If Blame had run more than 5 races, I might feel differently. But his campaign did not not blow me away.

All this lamenting the future meaning of the awards is an over-reaction, IMO. The award was given to a charismatic 19-1 mare with a 1st and a (close) 2nd in successive BC Classics, I don't think we will have to face a similar situation again in our lifetime.

--Dunbar

I feel the same way, especially the highlighted part.

[AeWingnut]

https://www.bloodhorse.com/special-p...ampaign=ZenSet

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

https://www.bloodhorse.com/special-p...ampaign=ZenSet

May as well cash in now while all the 'New Fans" still remember her name.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I agree with a lot of what you said here, and yet I'm still glad Zenyatta got HOY. I don't feel it's either sad or terrible to take "body of work" into consideration. There's plenty to NOT like about Zenyatta's 2010 campaign. But, Zenyatta's connections DID bring her back and they DID run in the Apple Blossom, announcing it early enough for any mare in the country to challenge her. They DID run in the BC Classic, finishing a close enough second to take nearly everyone's breath away who watched the race.

If Blame had run more than 5 races, I might feel differently. But his campaign did not not blow me away.

All this lamenting the future meaning of the awards is an over-reaction, IMO. The award was given to a charismatic 19-1 mare with a 1st and a (close) 2nd in successive BC Classics, I don't think we will have to face a similar situation again in our lifetime.

--Dunbar

Excellent balanced view. I hope that those that discredit Zenyatta have the opportunity to discuss their views with the Allan Jerkins', Bafferts etc. So many of the horseman who train and work with these athletes have been very open with their opinion on Zenyatta's greatness. We all have our opinions but ask those that are far more credible than most of the posters here. Some of the best minds in the sport are in the camp that she was deserving and was the best horse running last year.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Excellent balanced view. I hope that those that discredit Zenyatta have the opportunity to discuss their views with the Allan Jerkins', Bafferts etc. So many of the horseman who train and work with these athletes have been very open with their opinion on Zenyatta's greatness. We all have our opinions but ask those that are far more credible than most of the posters here. Some of the best minds in the sport are in the camp that she was deserving and was the best horse running last year.

Just because they're the best minds in the sport doesn't mean they are immune to mistakes.

Anyways, what is Baffert going to say? He probably walks by Shirreffs on a daily basis, he's not going to say anything that would make working around him uncomfortable. You wouldn't go into an office and start criticizing all your co workers.

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Just because they're the best minds in the sport doesn't mean they are immune to mistakes.

Anyways, what is Baffert going to say? He probably walks by Shirreffs on a daily basis, he's not going to say anything that would make working around him uncomfortable. You wouldn't go into an office and start criticizing all your co workers.

Really?!~

[King Glorious]

I'm not even sure that if anyone were to look at the pp's of the candidates, without having her name attatched to them, Zenyatta would have even been named champion older mare in 2010. Her "campaign" was that weak. Of course, you can't blame her for her competition when she runs in the races that are supposed to be the best ones but you can blame her connections for not even trying the toughest races available to them. Shirreffs himself said that he never really considered running her against the males this year in races in California because those races are tough. He seriously said that. Yet, his horse gets rewarded as HOY because he avoided tough races? We've previously had Cigar, Skip Away, and Curlin be named HOY after losing the Classic so this is not the first time. But in each of those cases, they had built up enough "credits" to get a pass for losing. Zenyatta didn't. They made a calculated decision to put all of their eggs in one basket for the title and they lost.

Seabiscuit should have been HOY because he brought millions in at the box office. On track results don't seem to matter anymore.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Excellent balanced view. I hope that those that discredit Zenyatta have the opportunity to discuss their views with the Allan Jerkins', Bafferts etc. So many of the horseman who train and work with these athletes have been very open with their opinion on Zenyatta's greatness. We all have our opinions but ask those that are far more credible than most of the posters here. Some of the best minds in the sport are in the camp that she was deserving and was the best horse running last year.

You might have a little bit of credibility if you spelled Allen Jerkens name right. Or if you weren't a babbling idiot.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

We all have our opinions but ask those that are far more credible than most of the posters here.

Great post, Dunbar.


That last line especially... dead on.

Handicappy...

I'm sorry but what exactly makes their opinions more credible?

There are people here who have followed the sport, who have played for decades.

I would respectfully remind you to look at the spreadsheet thread and suggest that the opinions of many here are, at the very least, just as credible.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Great post, Dunbar.


That last line especially... dead on.

Handicappy...

I'm sorry but what exactly makes their opinions more credible?

There are people here who have followed the sport, who have played for decades.

I would respectfully remind you to look at the spreadsheet thread and suggest that the opinions of many here are, at the very least, just as credible.

he agrees with them, they support his view, thus they are credible.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Excellent balanced view. I hope that those that discredit Zenyatta have the opportunity to discuss their views with the Allan Jerkins', Bafferts etc. So many of the horseman who train and work with these athletes have been very open with their opinion on Zenyatta's greatness. We all have our opinions but ask those that are far more credible than most of the posters here. Some of the best minds in the sport are in the camp that she was deserving and was the best horse running last year.

i'm not sure why you and others feel zenyatta is being 'discredited' by anyone. the fact is, that zenyatta has ZERO wins in 2010 in open company. blame's wins all occurred in open stakes company. that fact alone suggests that he had a tougher campaign. it's not a discredit, it's not opinion or conjecture. again, had she been any mare other than zenyatta, she'd have never garnered a vote, let alone win the thing. everyone knows why she won-and many disagree with giving horse of the YEAR to a horse who had to campaign three years to receive that award.