Who was closer to the Triple Crown...Smarty or Alex?

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by pmayjr

Yeah man I'm warning you. Some posters on this site will slay you for posting about hypotheticals. I posted before that even if nothing woulda happened to Barbaro in the Preakness, I think Bernardini would have beaten him that day.

This isn't really a hypothetical.. It's based on stuff that already happened, and is actually one of the smartest and most intriguing posts I've seen on here in a while.

Smarty was unfairly sabotaged in the Belmont, but Afleet Alex ran on a dead rail for most of the Derby, and they both missed the TC by just a length.

I'm gonna give Smarty the slight nod, because the circumstance that cost him the TC is a much more tangible than the one that cost 'Alex. While I don't dispute that the rail was dead that day at CD, who knows how much it cost him and HOW dead it was? Smarty, on the other hand, was clearly sabotaged and it certainly cost him the TC in my eyes.

Very good post.

[repent]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

This isn't really a hypothetical.. It's based on stuff that already happened, and is actually one of the smartest and most intriguing posts I've seen on here in a while.

Smarty was unfairly sabotaged in the Belmont, but Afleet Alex ran on a dead rail for most of the Derby, and they both missed the TC by just a length.

I'm gonna give Smarty the slight nod, because the circumstance that cost him the TC is a much more tangible than the one that cost 'Alex. While I don't dispute that the rail was dead that day at CD, who knows how much it cost him and HOW dead it was? Smarty, on the other hand, was clearly sabotaged and it certainly cost him the TC in my eyes.

Very good post.

unfairly sabotaged?

Ive never heard of anything as ridiculous ateam.
the other jocks tried to do what they could to get him beat, but thats not unfair.
thats racing.
its not lke Zito or the whitneys paid off the other contestants.

He got beat by a better horse. A Travers winner.
no different than when VGallop beat RQuiet or when Touch Gold beat SCharm.


Repent

[repent]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Absolutely no way that Birdstone was better than Smarty. Bailey was mad, and was on a mission to make sure the horse he tried so hard to get on, was not a TC winner. Birdstone was no slouch, as his Travers showed, but I think it is crazy to say he was a better horse.

yap, yap, yap........................

same rhetoric the smarty party always uses, and they never say anything of substance.

The Stone and lucky jones met one time on a dry track,
and The Stone beat him.
lucky needed a wet track to beat him.

and Bailey would not lower himself to riding on that PA bred.
he had real horses to ride.


Repent

[1st_Saturday_in_May]

Just nod and pretend to agree with Repent You're not going to win this one with him, its been going on for a long time now and nothing has changed...

[repent]

Originally Posted by 1st_Saturday_in_May

Just nod and pretend to agree with Repent You're not going to win this one with him, its been going on for a long time now and nothing has changed...

to quote Ed Vedder,
nothing has changed but the surrounding bull sh*t, that has grown.




Repent

[King Glorious]

Easily Smarty. I don't think that Alex was the best horse in his loss. I thought Smarty was. I don't think it's even close. I felt that Smarty was 3x the horse Alex was, maybe more.

[pmayjr]

Ateam,
I meant that some posters on me have attacked me for posting things like this question. Speculation on thing that haven't happened and things like that. Responses like NorthCarolinaTon'ys are what I mean. He's actually polite about it. A lot fo people have literally "snapped on me" for it... That's all I meant. I think it's a good topic and worth talking about too.

'Pent, of course it's not provable. And techinically nothing illegal wss done. But if anyone wanted to see Smarty fail, It was Bailey. For all the reasons listed above, not for just for the reason of "winning a race".

[repent]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

So this babble was substance? Would the real horses Bailey had to ride be the ones that couldn't get within a sniff of Smarty? Your "substance" is that they met once on a dry track and beat him? Yeah he did, but I highly doubt you will find many sane people that will tell you Smarty wasn't best that day. His Belmont is the most courageous run I have ever seen, and like I said most sane people will tell you the same. Like I said, Birdstone was a pretty good horse, to win a Belmont and travers is a very good accomplishment. But he was not better than Smarty. And I would love for you to find people who agree with your stance.

I dont give 2 sh*ts if anyone agrees with me.

and that Belmont run was the most courageous you have seen?

lmao,
did you not see PEnsign's BC Distaff win?
how about any of Giants Causeway's wins during that incredible win streak?
or either one of Tiznow's BCC wins?
or Storm Flag Flying's BCJF win?

you see, all these horses WON.

lucky jones LOST.

if you want to talk about amazing performances in a losing effort,
check out Rock of Gibraltar's BCMile run.
or Falbrav's BCTurf loss.
or Swain's Dubai World Cup loss to Silver Charm.

all much more impressive performances and displays of "courage".



Repent

[largo1]

Afleet Alex was closer to winning the triple crown. If Jeremy Rose hadn't moved him to the *dead* Churchill rail, he probably would have won the Derby. He was much the best that day. I think he could have held off Giacomo closing on the outside. I like Giacomo, but I do think that on that day, Afleet Alex was the much better horse,,,just had ****ty racing luck. Which we all know is a huge part of the game.

Now, that being said, I think Smarty was a better horse. He was more deserving of the Triple Crown, but, the way the race set up, there was just NO WAY he beats Birdstone that day. Like many, I think it was because of the way he was double-teamed,,,,but I really can't take anything away from Birdstone on that day. And double-teaming is legal, just like running rabbits. I STILL cry big ole crocodile tears when I watch that Belmont replay. Actually, I have a real hard time watching it. Broke my heart!!

Suzanne

[repent]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You're right, I misspoke. It wasn't the most, but it was one of. Still doesn't give any creedence to your original nonsense. You can't back that up, and I'm done with this. No point wasting my time with a sore loser.

cant back what up?
that The Stone was better?
you are just p*sed b/c I can back that up.

almost every historically significant horse has won at Belmont Racetrack.
when did smarty jones do that?
the Stone did it, and more than once.

The Stone beat him when they met on a dry track.
the Stone went on to win the Travers, which is our country's best measuring stick of top class 3YOs.
look at the past winners.
the Travers winners are as impressive of a group as any 3YO race run in this country.
you can say that lucky jones was better.
hell, you can even believe it if you want to.
but the record shows us that The Stone beat him the last time they met and the one time they met on a dry track.
and from a historical perspective, its not even close.
The Stone rules over lucky jones.



Repent

[repent]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'll be nice, since you are relatively new to this sport. I mean you would have to be making some of those remarks. I defy you to find me one credible person that will tell you that Birdstone wasn't the recipient of a dream trip in the Belmont. I also defy you to find me one person that will tell you that Smarty wasn't better that day or any. I know you don't care who says what, but I have never heard one person say Birdstone was better than Smarty. If Birdstone didn't like the wet track like you are implying, it certainly didn't bother him in the Travers. Your claim that because Smarty never won at Belmont is something to hold against him is borderline retarded. He ran there once, and he hardly disgraced himself. I guess winning the Derby and Preakness is no big accomplishment. I find it funny that you can make historical comments while knowing very little of what you are talking about. From a historical perspective NO ONE will say birdstone was better, NO ONE. No one on here, or anywhere.

you are a freaking moron.

the Travers track was listed as "fast".
the rain came after the race that day.

but Im not even sayng The Stone hated an off track.
what I am saying is that the one time they met on a dry track, The Stone beat him.
new to the sport?
maybe, depends on perspective.
but the verification of your expertise relies on someone else, anyone else, agreeing with your opinion.
what the hell kind of sense does that make.
I oay the b*tch next door to say that Birdstone was a better horse.
that does not make it any more true or false.

and you want me to find a "credible" person to say that Birdstone was not the recipient of a "dream trip"?
what makes someone credible and what encompasses a dream trip?
does someone on this board with x amount of posts make them credible?
do they need to be a full time writer with the Daily Racing Form?
or can they be a degenerate at Manor Downs that i see when I stop by to pick up a form?


your position is full of holes and all the smarty party agreeing with you will not make it any stronger.

Birdstone got the right pace scenario he needed to be most effective on Belmont Stakes day.
so what?
it does not make his win any less valid than if smarty jones had won the race while getting an easy lead.

stop worrying about my experience within the game or my historical perspective.
they are not relevant to the argument at hand.

like I said, nothing has changed but the surrounding bullsh*t that has grown.
Ed was right on point with that one.



Repent

[repent]

good gosh,
this is like conversing with Richi.

when this dude cant strengthen his argument any further,
he starts attaking the opposition's percieved experience or status within the game of horse racing.

what a bunch of crap.

Im a mid 20s businessman with a full time addiction to horse racing.
I love it. It consumes almost all my free time.
Im not an expert and would never pretend to be.
but I do my homework. I dont present false data and I dont assume my conclusions to be facts.

hey btw, DaHoss sucked as a racehorse.



Repent

Originally Posted by repent

you are a freaking moron.

the Travers track was listed as "fast".
the rain came after the race that day.

but Im not even sayng The Stone hated an off track.
what I am saying is that the one time they met on a dry track, The Stone beat him.
new to the sport?
maybe, depends on perspective.
but the verification of your expertise relies on someone else, anyone else, agreeing with your opinion.
what the hell kind of sense does that make.
I oay the b*tch next door to say that Birdstone was a better horse.
that does not make it any more true or false.

and you want me to find a "credible" person to say that Birdstone was not the recipient of a "dream trip"?
what makes someone credible and what encompasses a dream trip?
does someone on this board with x amount of posts make them credible?
do they need to be a full time writer with the Daily Racing Form?
or can they be a degenerate at Manor Downs that i see when I stop by to pick up a form?


your position is full of holes and all the smarty party agreeing with you will not make it any stronger.

Birdstone got the right pace scenario he needed to be most effective on Belmont Stakes day.
so what?
it does not make his win any less valid than if smarty jones had won the race while getting an easy lead.

stop worrying about my experience within the game or my historical perspective.
they are not relevant to the argument at hand.

like I said, nothing has changed but the surrounding bullsh*t that has grown.
Ed was right on point with that one.



Repent

I am not trying to refute what you said or argue with you. I have only one point to make. I was at the Travers in 2004. It started raining about twenty minutes before the Travers; my husband and I were caught in the deluge as we walked to the track. We needed a row boat to navigate. I think the race was even run several minutes early, so we could not bet! We had just gotten to the track as it was being run. I had bet Birdstone in the Belmont, so I was going to put him in some big exactas. Anyway, my only point is that track seemed very off, so Birdstone won on a pea soup track that day.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by repent

you are a freaking moron.

the Travers track was listed as "fast".
the rain came after the race that day.

but Im not even sayng The Stone hated an off track.
what I am saying is that the one time they met on a dry track, The Stone beat him.
new to the sport?
maybe, depends on perspective.
but the verification of your expertise relies on someone else, anyone else, agreeing with your opinion.
what the hell kind of sense does that make.
I oay the b*tch next door to say that Birdstone was a better horse.
that does not make it any more true or false.

and you want me to find a "credible" person to say that Birdstone was not the recipient of a "dream trip"?
what makes someone credible and what encompasses a dream trip?
does someone on this board with x amount of posts make them credible?
do they need to be a full time writer with the Daily Racing Form?
or can they be a degenerate at Manor Downs that i see when I stop by to pick up a form?


your position is full of holes and all the smarty party agreeing with you will not make it any stronger.

Birdstone got the right pace scenario he needed to be most effective on Belmont Stakes day.
so what?
it does not make his win any less valid than if smarty jones had won the race while getting an easy lead.

stop worrying about my experience within the game or my historical perspective.
they are not relevant to the argument at hand.

like I said, nothing has changed but the surrounding bullsh*t that has grown.
Ed was right on point with that one.



Repent

Did you even WATCH the travers that day?? it was pouring rain during the race so hard they actually MOVED THE START UP 3 MINUTES, costing NYRA likely a million in handle. The track was soup. But you wouldn't know that since you play at MANOR freakin' DOWNS... is that really a racetrack?!? do they have TV's there or do they broadcast the simulcast over a shortwave radio??

Someday you'll grow up. I hope.