NYC OTB: Court dismisses bankruptcy case..

[Kasept]

Terrific background piece by Alan Mann the other day in his great 'Left at the Gate' blog on the pre-history of the potential of 5 borough teletheaters by NYRA. There are some amazing links to other documents including a 1990 NYT article by Steve Crist which came on the eve of the Hazel Dukes 'administration' of NYC OTB. If you are interested in this topic, do not miss Alan's effort: http://leftatthegate.blogspot.com/20...etheaters.html

[pointman]

Great stuff, Steve. The improvements that have come to NYRA just in the weeks since the demise of OTB are stunning considering the quickness and red tape they certainly have to go through, particulary in NY. The fact that they can now stream their races live on the internet and quickly took over Channel 71 in NYC are vast improvements for both NYRA and the horse player. The one disappointment is that while I understand NYRA wanting to attrack new customers by offering $100 if you bet $100 and double the rewards, it should not slap the loyal existing customers in the face by not offering the same to them.

For those who have called anything NYRA has received from NY State a subsidy, they should realize that NY State has robbed and strangled the horse racing industry for 40 years through OTB creating many of the problems the industry finds itself in today. OTB in New York has been nothing more than just another way for the State to siphon money to itself and has never operated in the interest of the racetracks.

The opportunites that the demise of NYC OTB has crated for NYRA right now just might right the ship and turn NYRA into a profitable model if it is able to establish its own OTB operation without having to pay the OTB surcharge under the prior business model. Couple that with the casino, it appears that for once NY Racing is moving back in the right direction. Next step is to dismantle the remaining OTB's and give them back to the racetracks and allow those who put on the product and bear the expense of doing so to keep the revenues the product earns.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pointman

The one disappointment is that while I understand NYRA wanting to attrack new customers by offering $100 if you bet $100 and double the rewards, it should not slap the loyal existing customers in the face by not offering the same to them.

I understand this sentiment, and have brought it up, but that's the way promotions work. You offer something to encourage people to join. I see Time Warner offer the service I pay for at a discount for a period of time to NEW customers. They don't offer that same price to me. There are MANY examples of this kind. This is really no different. Is it wholly fair? No, but this is how you try to encourage people to sign up with you in a competitive environment.

NYRA Rewards did give existing customers double rewards for December.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by pointman

Great stuff, Steve. The improvements that have come to NYRA just in the weeks since the demise of OTB are stunning considering the quickness and red tape they certainly have to go through, particulary in NY. The fact that they can now stream their races live on the internet and quickly took over Channel 71 in NYC are vast improvements for both NYRA and the horse player. The one disappointment is that while I understand NYRA wanting to attrack new customers by offering $100 if you bet $100 and double the rewards, it should not slap the loyal existing customers in the face by not offering the same to them.

For those who have called anything NYRA has received from NY State a subsidy, they should realize that NY State has robbed and strangled the horse racing industry for 40 years through OTB creating many of the problems the industry finds itself in today. OTB in New York has been nothing more than just another way for the State to siphon money to itself and has never operated in the interest of the racetracks.

The opportunites that the demise of NYC OTB has crated for NYRA right now just might right the ship and turn NYRA into a profitable model if it is able to establish its own OTB operation without having to pay the OTB surcharge under the prior business model. Couple that with the casino, it appears that for once NY Racing is moving back in the right direction. Next step is to dismantle the remaining OTB's and give them back to the racetracks and allow those who put on the product and bear the expense of doing so to keep the revenues the product earns.

Actually the next step is assign a mechanism to pay the 500plus million in liabilty the State incurred when NYCOTB closed.

I like you am pleased that NYRA has been so successful rectifing many of the OTB ills. How much you think the State should garnish out of the VLT earn due horseman for the OTB liablty? Money has to get paid from somewhere right? It's not fair and its totally unjustified but it is what it is.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Actually the next step is assign a mechanism to pay the 500plus million in liabilty the State incurred when NYCOTB closed.

I like you am pleased that NYRA has been so successful rectifing many of the OTB ills. How much you think the State should garnish out of the VLT earn due horseman for the OTB liablty? Money has to get paid from somewhere right? It's not fair and its totally unjustified but it is what it is.

Freddy, I don't disagree with you with VLT's as they are not a panacea for racing, but it has to be put in perspective for the necessary evil it has become. When a business is doing better than its competitors on a level playing field and then suddenly the competitor gains a signifcant advantage that the business is not allowed to have itself, it goes without saying that the competitor will win on the unlevel playing field. There is no better example than New Jersey who has seen its main competitors in Pennsylvania, Delaware and soon to be New York and Maryland gain VLT's, the New Jersey tracks are no longer on a level playing field. Couple that with the fact that New Jersey appears beholden to Donald Trump and the other AC casino owners trying to maintain a monopoly that no longer exists, New Jersey racing's survival is doomed if it cannot compete on the same field. I agree that contraction is necessary and the VLT's at many tracks are only delaying the inevitable for those that should not survive.

My point was that NY Racing has had a stranglehold on it for 40 years that similarly made the playing field unlevel solely for the purpose of NY State siphoning money for its coffers, OTB. The NY OTB model has created a competitor for NY racetracks right on their own turf instead of allowing the racetracks to survive, profit and adjust to the changing technology and business model necessary to attract todays horseplayer and run a successful racetrack. Thankfully for NY Racing, NYRA has an opportunity to attract much more of the business that they put on at a much cheaper cost while cutting out the middleman, these are all things that contribute to changing a business model to a more successful one which in NYRA's case in the long run can be the difference between losing money or making enough money to sustain its product without any help from the State which has robbed it blind for 40 years.

As far as the liabilities that OTB created, I disagree that they should fall on NYRA. The State legislators created OTB, the patronage, the lavish union contracts and benefits that led to the only bookie that went bankrupt and are just as responsible for finding a way to pay for the mess they created, instead of sticking it to the operations they robbed blind in order to steal money from the racing industry to keep alive their inability to stop spending money. What is nice to see is the opportunity that NYRA has to demonstrate the business can succeed without the biggest shackles it has had, even if some do remain, and even nicer to see NYRA quickly and eagerly pursuing those interests.

[freddymo]

As far as the liabilities that OTB created, I disagree that they should fall on NYRA. The State legislators created OTB, the patronage, the lavish union contracts and benefits that led to the only bookie that went bankrupt and are just as responsible for finding a way to pay for the mess they created, not the operation they robbed blind in order to what they did. What is nice to see is the opportunity that NYRA has to demonstrate the business can succeed without the biggest shackles it has had, even if some do remain, and even nicer to see NYRA quickly and eagerly pursuing those interests.

A couple things to consider and I couldn't agree more with your thoughts but you are completely unrealistic. Let's start with your first real premise, NYRA has its shiiit together and racing is finally going to get much better in NY. I agree a million percent. NYCOTB was a disgrace but a disgrace that employeed 1500 odd people. Those people made good money and hence were all decent tax paying citizen(save the schmuck) so while NYCOTB was horrible it still paid people 50mil a year in salary and bennys. That is a lot of taxable revenue. So while a failure it was certainly a good job. Now it is gone, now the State has to pay the piper. I get the State is at fault, I get NYRA or the horseman, or the owners had zero to do with their demise, but were the fvck do you want the money to come from? The logical place is the VLT's and if NYRA was smart they would be proactive and address this issue immediately with the State. Why? because it is going to happen anyways so it is smarter to address it before the carpet gets pulled from underneath you then waiting and crying about it. A broke State isn't goint to let the Horse Industry prosper with huge subsides because its the right thing to do for horseman. If NYRA was proactive they would say to the State they want to chip in to pay off the NYCOTB liabilty if they can have more reign on their product including teletheathers etc. All the "its not our fault" crying while true is not going to stop the State from garnishing the VLT deal to pay off NYCOTB tab.

The other NJ slot stuff is what it is if racing were to stop in NJ so be it. It is about time we start seriously closing tracks. This coming from a guy who loves MP and grew up 5 miles from Freehold. It is what it is if racings new Mecca is Parx or Remington park well shiit happens

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

As far as the liabilities that OTB created, I disagree that they should fall on NYRA. The State legislators created OTB, the patronage, the lavish union contracts and benefits that led to the only bookie that went bankrupt and are just as responsible for finding a way to pay for the mess they created, not the operation they robbed blind in order to what they did. What is nice to see is the opportunity that NYRA has to demonstrate the business can succeed without the biggest shackles it has had, even if some do remain, and even nicer to see NYRA quickly and eagerly pursuing those interests.

A couple things to consider and I couldn't agree more with your thoughts but you are completely unrealistic. Let's start with your first real premise, NYRA has its shiiit together and racing is finally going to get much better in NY. I agree a million percent. NYCOTB was a disgrace but a disgrace that employeed 1500 odd people. Those people made good money and hence were all decent tax paying citizen(save the schmuck) so while NYCOTB was horrible it still paid people 50mil a year in salary and bennys. That is a lot of taxable revenue. So while a failure it was certainly a good job. Now it is gone, now the State has to pay the piper. I get the State is at fault, I get NYRA or the horseman, or the owners had zero to do with their demise, but were the fvck do you want the money to come from? The logical place is the VLT's and if NYRA was smart they would be proactive and address this issue immediately with the State. Why? because it is going to happen anyways so it is smarter to address it before the carpet gets pulled from underneath you then waiting and crying about it. A broke State isn't goint to let the Horse Industry prosper with huge subsides because its the right thing to do for horseman. If NYRA was proactive they would say to the State they want to chip in to pay off the NYCOTB liabilty if they can have more reign on their product including teletheathers etc. All the "its not our fault" crying while true is not going to stop the State from garnishing the VLT deal to pay off NYCOTB tab.

The other NJ slot stuff is what it is if racing were to stop in NJ so be it. It is about time we start seriously closing tracks. This coming from a guy who loves MP and grew up 5 miles from Freehold. It is what it is if racings new Mecca is Parx or Remington park well shiit happens

Closing tracks solves nothing. It is like saying that the NFL getting rid of the horrid NFC west is going to solve the issue of concussions.

As for the $500 million liability that OTB has left to the state, I doubt that the true number is anywhere near that.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Closing tracks solves nothing. It is like saying that the NFL getting rid of the horrid NFC west is going to solve the issue of concussions.

As for the $500 million liability that OTB has left to the state, I doubt that the true number is anywhere near that.

Actually contraction works.

[richard]

I agree with pointman in that cutting the size of goverment, its spending, public employees salaries and benefits is the key to success . Put the money in the hands of the investors, the risk takers .

[Kasept]

Union argues against dismissal of New York City OTB bankruptcy case
By David Grening

The goal of the plan is not to re-open the shuttered parlors and teletheatres, but instead to recover monies previously paid to the state’s racetracks that would be used toward paying health and welfare benefits to the approximately 1,000 terminated OTB employees as well as approximately 600 retirees of the corporation.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Union argues against dismissal of New York City OTB bankruptcy case
By David Grening

The goal of the plan is not to re-open the shuttered parlors and teletheatres, but instead to recover monies previously paid to the state’s racetracks that would be used toward paying health and welfare benefits to the approximately 1,000 terminated OTB employees as well as approximately 600 retirees of the corporation.

Wow that is the greatest argument ever by the Union attorney. 700 an hour for that swill? The creditors(tracks) should be forced to repay the shell because OTB was insolvent and they didnt get fair value. WHOLLY mother of G-d that is special.

[Kasept]

Judge dismisses NYC OTB bankruptcy case
By Matt Hegarty

A U.S. Bankruptcy Court judge has approved a request by the New York City Off-Track Betting Corporation to have its bankruptcy case dismissed, a decision that will effectively shutter the company for good.

In granting the motion, Glenn cast aside the objections of some of OTB’s creditors and a union representing the vast majority of OTB’s 1,300 former employees. Last week, lawyers for the union filed a motion asking the court to reject OTB’s motion for dismissal and instead appoint a trustee that would “investigate and prosecute potential claims against New York tracks for hundreds of millions of dollars of reimbursed payments” made by OTB during its attempt to reorganize under the protection of the bankruptcy court. The union’s lawyers had argued that the payments to the tracks were illegal, but the judge said that the payments were distributed due to statutory requirements.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Judge dismisses NYC OTB bankruptcy case
By Matt Hegarty

A U.S. Bankruptcy Court judge has approved a request by the New York City Off-Track Betting Corporation to have its bankruptcy case dismissed, a decision that will effectively shutter the company for good.

In granting the motion, Glenn cast aside the objections of some of OTB’s creditors and a union representing the vast majority of OTB’s 1,300 former employees. Last week, lawyers for the union filed a motion asking the court to reject OTB’s motion for dismissal and instead appoint a trustee that would “investigate and prosecute potential claims against New York tracks for hundreds of millions of dollars of reimbursed payments” made by OTB during its attempt to reorganize under the protection of the bankruptcy court. The union’s lawyers had argued that the payments to the tracks were illegal, but the judge said that the payments were distributed due to statutory requirements.

I wonder how much the bill was from the Unions attorneys for that crock of shiiit argument.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I wonder how much the bill was from the Unions attorneys for that crock of shiiit argument.

I can't imagine that the lawyers were able to keep a straight face while making such a nonsensical argument before a Federal judge, but my guess is around $500 an hour.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by pointman

I can't imagine that the lawyers were able to keep a straight face while making such a nonsensical argument before a Federal judge.

There invoice was sent with all the right stuff.

[Mustanada]

Originally Posted by pointman

Does anyone know whether the Aqueduct races will be broadcast to NYC residents if there is a shutdown?

From what I understand NYRA rangled the OTB channels in NYC

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Mustanada

From what I understand NYRA rangled the OTB channels in NYC

Wrangled? Uh... no.

NYRA is paying the City of New York between $2,200,000-$3,000,000/year for the broadcast access.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Rangled? Uh... no.

NYRA is paying the City of New York between $2,200,000-$3,000,000/year for the broadcast access.

(And it's 'wrangled' for its' next misapplication.)

Small price to pay for this

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Wrangled? Uh... no.

NYRA is paying the City of New York between $2,200,000-$3,000,000/year for the broadcast access.

Reverse engineer the fee. How much handle does that need to produce?

[Alan07]

New York Racing Association President Charles Hayward has gone on the record as saying that he is surprised with the turnout and wagering popularity of the Aqueduct racetrack for thoroughbreds, which has seen its numbers go up during a time of industry upheaval and terrible weather in the state.

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2...ewmode=default