Kelso - #2 rated North American horse of all-time

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig

sec freaked during the tc...but citation actually faced older horses early that year-and far earlier than 3 yo's do now. he defeated armed, hoy of the year the previous year, a couple months before the tc races. then, he won a race between the preakness and belmont. ah, the good old days. hard to say who was the better 3 yo. arguements can be made for either one.

What I found interesting about Citation was that he might not have been favored in the Ky Derby if he wasn't coupled with stablemate Coaltown.

They asked about 40 or so trainers at Churchill who they liked - and for every trainer who liked Citation - there was about three who said Coaltown would win. Though, of the 5 DRF handicappers, 3 picked Citation on top and 2 picked Coaltown on top.

It's pretty remarkable to think that so many horse trainers would pick against the horse with a 16-14-2-0 lifetime record ... in favor of a late to the races 5th time starter - who only had a single lifetime race beyond 6fs.



I suppose this was in a day before track bias talk - but Coaltown's win in the Blue Grass came on a loose lead at Keeneland. They reconfigured KEE when they put in the poly-track ... but supposedly, the way the track was designed had a lot to do with why inside-speed was so strong there.

Citation did beat Armed early on as a 3yo - but those happened at sprint distances and Armed was cutting back from 10fs and wasn't in sharp form.

[randallscott35]

Cool Coal Man would've smoked him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Cool Coal Man would've smoked him.

Probably not.

Coaltown was oddly similar to Gun Bow in a lot of ways - neither raced at aged 2. Both flashed signs of strong talent at age 3. Both became freaks at age 4 with a run-off style.

Coaltown won 12 out of his first 13 races at age 4 - going 10fs at Gulfstream he set factions of 45 flat, 1:09 flat, 1:34.20, 1:59.80 crushing the track record in a 7 length win .. pretty strong pace and final time for the late 1940's.

Coaltown was champion older male as a 4yo even though he tailed off at the end of the season. He was ruined by his 5yo season.

[slotdirt]

Is it really that remarkable? There are dummies every year who pick the Dunkirks of the world over horses with actual foundation and experience.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Is it really that remarkable? There are dummies every year who pick the Dunkirks of the world over horses with actual foundation and experience.

So you had Mine That Bird?


Last I looked Curlin ran alright in the Derby

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Is it really that remarkable? There are dummies every year who pick the Dunkirks of the world over horses with actual foundation and experience.

That's true - but Citation wasn't exactly Pioneer of the Nile.

[slotdirt]

Good point.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

What I found interesting about Citation was that he might not have been favored in the Ky Derby if he wasn't coupled with stablemate Coaltown.

They asked about 40 or so trainers at Churchill who they liked - and for every trainer who liked Citation - there was about three who said Coaltown would win. Though, of the 5 DRF handicappers, 3 picked Citation on top and 2 picked Coaltown on top.

It's pretty remarkable to think that so many horse trainers would pick against the horse with a 16-14-2-0 lifetime record ... in favor of a late to the races 5th time starter - who only had a single lifetime race beyond 6fs.



I suppose this was in a day before track bias talk - but Coaltown's win in the Blue Grass came on a loose lead at Keeneland. They reconfigured KEE when they put in the poly-track ... but supposedly, the way the track was designed had a lot to do with why inside-speed was so strong there.

Citation did beat Armed early on as a 3yo - but those happened at sprint distances and Armed was cutting back from 10fs and wasn't in sharp form.

You may not know the legendary poster Dixie (Barn 31, Blue Eyes, etc.), but since he was the one who trained Coaltown and Citation, not Jones, I believe him when he says Coaltown was better.

Old Dixie would move on after the fall of Calumet and rise again to be calling the shots at Bobby Frankel's barn, clenching another dominance over racing in North America.

I've found the quality of competition that Dixie faced on the internet to be outstanding, but based on sheer body of work - I would rate him first in a canter.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

You may not know the legendary poster Dixie (Barn 31, Blue Eyes, etc.), but since he was the one who trained Coaltown and Citation, not Jones, I believe him when he says Coaltown was better.

Old Dixie would move on after the fall of Calumet and rise again to be calling the shots at Bobby Frankel's barn, clenching another dominance over racing in North America.

I've found the quality of competition that Dixie faced on the internet to be outstanding, but based on sheer body of work - I would rate him first in a canter.

I deeply regret that I missed out on a lot of Dixie Porter's nonsense. That was one of the great trolls/posters I only hear stories about - but never saw much in terms of his body of work. Kind of like a Jim Thorpe or Hindoo of trolls.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Regarding any Coaltown-Citation comparisons:

Coaltown almost certainly got to levels as a 4-year-old that Citation never reached in his career....and even though Citation was defeated in 11 of his first 13 attempts as an older horse - he was coming back off of an injury.

Here's Coaltown as a 4-year-old. The horse he beat by 7 lengths last out was coming east after winning the Santa Anita Handicap. He won the Suburban Handicap after that thumping.



Coaltown opened up 15 lengths and went on to win that race by 12 lengths to go 8-for-8 - he carried two bowling balls more in weight than the 2nd and 3rd place finishers of that race. He slaughtered some excellent competition in his prime.

With Citation - you've got one of the two or three greatest 3yo seasons ever. Coaltown is more of a Gun Bow type. Both are in the Hall of Fame ... both truly belong in the Hall of Fame ... but their greatness has more to do with a string of incredible indivdual performances than any long sustained peroid of greatness.

[OldDog]

Jon White blogs about Kelso:

http://hrtv.com/hrtvblogs/index.php/author/White

[Calzone Lord]

My attempted conquest of ancient China with Kong Rong failed.

Cao Cao - you slanty-eyed bitch.

[Calzone Lord]

Not only did Kelso won 5 HOY's from ages 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 ... but he captured the last of them by a wide margin over freaking Gun Bow and Northern Dancer in their only huge years.

Man O' War beat one serious horse his entire career - in a match-race - and that horse was battling injury and never won again. He wasn't exactly as fast against the clock as some might assume.

Citation was the most accomplished 3-year-old ever and totally great on ability as well - had they not brought him back off of a major injury - more people would consider him the greatest ever.

Secretariat's 3-year-old form had many great peaks - but also four pretty sub-par races for a horse of his caliber. Best triple crown campaign ever ... only Whirlaway's is even somewhat close.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

My attempted conquest of ancient China with Kong Rong failed.

Cao Cao - you slanty-eyed bitch.

What is at a peak is certain to decline. He who shows his hand will surely be defeated. He who can prevail in battle by taking advantage of his enemy's doubts is invincible.

[ellpol]

Affirmed #1