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#1
12-03-2010, 02:23 PM
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Basically, Jon White thinks that Zenyatta is the best horse - male or female - that we've seen since Spectacular Bid. Spectacular Bid is the 2nd to youngest horse on that list of his... and he last raced over 30 years ago. 
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#2
12-03-2010, 02:24 PM
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#3
12-03-2010, 02:51 PM
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Bloodhorse rated Count Fleet #5 of the last century - if you saw the form of the horses he beat in those races - and looked at the times he was running in relation to the speed of the track - you'd want to load up on Smarty Jones against him. Let alone a Sunday Silence or Easy Goer. Man O' War is obviously a bad #1. He was born into a microscopic foal crop. After his Preakness win at age 3 .. which truly wasn't that fast even for the handful of horses around at that time .. he faced all 1-to-3 horse fields - and his brilliant early speed was great in match-race situations. His great claim to fame was beating Sir Barton in a match race in Canada .. Sir Barton never won another race. Citation, Kelso, Forego achieved a monsterous amount. Certainly great horses - but I think they would have been taken to the woodshed by a Spectacular Bid at distances of up to 10fs Native Dancer had a GREAT 2-year-old season. His Triple Crown campaign was very weak. Dr. Fager, Swaps, Tom Fool all truly great horses from every angle. I've finally had a chance to see some charts of their races and forms of opposition faced. Ruffian was a great filly at both 2 and 3 - but obviously she doesn't belong on this list. There are easily way more than 15 males better than her and maybe even a few females as well. Zenyatta never raced at two - accomplished nothing at 3 - and there's at least five older females unquestionably better than her. Princess Rooney would make no one's top 500 .. and she's run a 120 Beyer at 10fs ... was one of the most brilliant 2-year-old fillies of all-time ... and would beat Zenyatta by a city block at a distance of a mile.
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#4
12-03-2010, 02:58 PM
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As I said a few weeks back when I mentioned this list, how one can compare Zenyatta to horses like Busher, Twilight Tear, and Gallorette - who ran against males with some regularity - and come to the conclusion that she was a superior runner is beyond me.
__________________
The world's foremost expert on virtually everything on the Redskins 2010 season: "Im going to go out on a limb here. I say they make the playoffs."
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#5
12-03-2010, 03:18 PM
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For the record, Gallorette ran 72 times compiling a record of 21-20-13. She ran against her own sex a whopping 17 times. 17. One more time for clarity... SEVENTEEN. Versus females, 17/8-4-5 including: Acorn Stakes (1945) Black-Eyed Susan Stakes (1945) Delaware Oaks (1945) Beldame Stakes (1946) Top Flight (1948) She ran against males 55 times with a record of 13-16-8 against them at distances between 6f and 10f. She faced Stymie regularly. Assault. Pavot. Conniver. Among her wins: Metropolitan Handicap (1946) Brooklyn Handicap (1946) Wilson Stakes (1947, 1948) Queens County Handicap (1947) Carter Handicap (1948) Whitney Handicap (1948) The notion that Zenyatta is even an equal of Gallorette is utterly preposterous.
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#6
12-03-2010, 03:22 PM
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__________________
don't run out of ammo.
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#7
12-03-2010, 03:23 PM
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#8
12-03-2010, 03:29 PM
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Personally, as I've said a number of times, I think she would have acquitted herself famously if given the opportunity. Had she been campaigned with true historical proportion in mind, she likely would have built a far more impressive body of work with clear indications of her greatness, than the hollow slate that was foisted on her.
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#9
12-03-2010, 03:52 PM
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Festin had Zenyatta's running style .. lets pretend he was female and Shireffs was spotting him against Taptam, Lethal Heat, Brownie Points, Anbaa's Creations etc. Festin would kill those horses. He was clearly a better deep closer than Zenyatta. Where would you put Festin on a list of greatest horses ever?
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#10
12-03-2010, 02:59 PM
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Steve - if you were meaning to "purple" the fillies, you left out Beldame.
__________________
The world's foremost expert on virtually everything on the Redskins 2010 season: "Im going to go out on a limb here. I say they make the playoffs."
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#11
12-03-2010, 03:01 PM
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I've seen or been around racing for maybe 10 of the whole list. This makes me
 Like it was said before they sometimes raced against 3-4 other horses in alot of races.
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#12
12-03-2010, 03:06 PM
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It's hard to compare different generations but I have a major problem with Bid being below any horse that has run since the 60's.
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#13
12-03-2010, 03:39 PM
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Count Fleet lost a couple times to a horse named Occupation as a 2yo. Occupation was a nice sprinter who won four different Futurities at age two. He got sidelined and didn't come back till Count Fleet was retired - he just held on to win at Hawthorne on return. Here's who Count Fleet was beating as a 3-year-old ...  Blue Swords was 2nd to him in the Derby and Preakness. He never won a single race after age 2.  This horse was 3rd in the Derby and 2nd in the Withers to Count Fleet.  This horse was 2nd to Count Fleet in a 3 horse Belmont...albeit beaten 20 lengths. Count Fleet wasn't a slow horse by any means - it appears as though he was running figures in a 105-to-114 range at age 3. He never ran again after the Belmont Stakes ... how do you compare a horse like that with something that runs about 130 figures carrying 130lbs like Bid and Dr. Fager as older horses?.. and they actually faced real competition and curb stomped their competition a lot of the time.
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#14
12-03-2010, 02:26 PM
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I thought Cigar made it. Dam now the list is even worse than I thought. I hate this BS Best of List. Could the teams of the 30's beat today world Series winners? Are they the Best of All Time. At least in other Sports teams make the All Time list that even a 10 yearold could say he saw them play. I'm not saying all of the old timer's couldn't run but come on not a one since the Late 70's early 80's. Hell that's over 30 years ago.
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#15
12-03-2010, 02:27 PM
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No Mineshaft. Disgraceful.
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#16
12-03-2010, 02:32 PM
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Don't know about Mineshaft that much only saw him run in person once. What about some of the other's Curlin, Zapper, Point Given. I think alot of horses would've had a better record only going against 12 others in the Derby instead of the stampede they have now. A good record means nothing to me in today's racing.
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#17
12-03-2010, 02:40 PM
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Hey it could be worse. Earlier in the year on Steve's show he said he had her in the top 10.
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#18
12-03-2010, 02:44 PM
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To make this easier, here's the Bloodhorse Top 100 from the 20th Century, a list widely respected for its' fairness... Fold in your 2000-2010 horses and figure out where Zenyatta belongs, if she even makes the Top 100 or 125.
1. Man o'War 2. Secretariat 3. Citation 4. Kelso 5. Count Fleet 6. Dr. Fager 7. Native Dancer 8. Forego 9. Seattle Slew 10. Spectacular Bid 11. Tom Fool 12. Affirmed 13. War Admiral 14. Buckpasser 15. Colin 16. Damascus 17. Round Table 18. Cigar 19. Bold Ruler 20. Swaps 21. Equipoise 22. Phar Lap 23. John Henry 24. Nashua 25. Seabiscuit 26. Whirlaway 27. Alydar 28. Gallant Fox 29. Exterminator 30. Sysonby 31. Sunday Silence 32. Skip Away 33. Assault 34. Easy Goer 35. Ruffian 36. Gallant Man 37. Discovery 38. Challedon 39. Armed 40. Busher 41. Stymie 42. Alysheba 43. Northern Dancer 44. Ack Ack 45. Gallorette 46. Majestic Prince 47. Coaltown 48. Personal Ensign 49. Sir Barton 50. Dahila 51. Susan's Girl 52. Twenty Grand 53. Sword Dancer 54. Grey Lag 55. Devil Diver 56. Zev 57. Riva Ridge 58. Slew o'Gold 59. Twilight Tear 60. Native Diver 61. Omaha 62. Cicada 63. Silver Charm 64. Holy Bull 65. Alsab 66. Top Flight 67. Arts and Letters 68. All Along 69. Noor 70. Shuvee 71. Regret 72. Go for Wand 73. Johnstown 74. Bald Eagle 75. Hill Prince 76. Lady's Secret 77. Two Lea 78. Eight Thirty 79. Gallant Bloom 80. Ta Wee 81. Affectionately 82. Miesque 83. Carry Back 84. Bimelech 85. Lure 86. Fort Marcy 87. Gamely 88. Old Rosebud 89. Bewitch 90. Davona Dale 91. Genuine Risk 92. Sarazen 93. Sun Beau 94. Artful 95. Bayakoa 96. Exceller 97. Foolish Pleasure 98. Beldame 99. Roamer 100. Blue Larkspur
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984. Last edited by Kasept : 12-03-2010 at 03:01 PM.
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#20
12-03-2010, 02:50 PM
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So Cigar is 18 and then Skippy is 32. My my what a tangled web.
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