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#1
11-16-2010, 02:29 PM
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It was also a 3-year-old Spectacular Bid VS a 4-year-old Affirmed. Len Ragozin wrote a book many years ago called 'The Odds Must Be Crazy' - it was a very good read - but he comes across as a braggart of epic proportions. I'm talking multiple 100/1 shots winners - scoring huge on an imposter horse at 57/1 in a famous betting coup - and even making a $51,000 boxing bet against his idol Muhammed Ali in the fight Holmes destroyed him. Anyway, he writes about proposing a deal with Affirmed's owner for a $50,000 bet between the two - double booking - with Ragozin taking The Bid. He mentioned that Spectacular Bid was actually consistently faster as a 3yo than Affirmed was as a 4yo...and Affirmed was obviously one of the great 4yo's of all-time. Spectacular Bid's dam was a Northern Cal sprinter - and he was shockingly beat at 12fs in the Belmont by horses he owned. If you watch the race with Affirmed - it was a total tactical defeat and Bid really ran the better of the two. Affirmed was allowed unpressed on the lead through a 25 flat first quarter. Basically, the trainer and jockey of the Bid were more worried about him getting the distance than they were about Affirmed. Pincay rode a brilliant race and floated the Bid out on both turns .. he actually seemed to cross into his path turning for home..and the Bid had to dive inside of Affirmed for the stretch run despite being floated wider both turns .. he made up some ground through the stretch but came up less than a length short. Secretariat and Affirmed both suffered defeats to older horses at age 3 on two occasions each. Seattle Slew put in a non-effort in his only start after the triple crown when drubbed out West in the Swaps. A great 4-year-old should be able to beat a great 3-year-old the majority of the time. 
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#2
11-16-2010, 02:40 PM
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His wins were almost all by open lengths . He is laid to rest in his entirety at Milfer Farm, atop a scenic, windswept hill in upstate NY.
Feb 17, 1973 - June 9, 2003
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Tom Cooley photo Last edited by richard : 11-16-2010 at 08:48 PM.
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#3
11-16-2010, 04:42 PM
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Since this was way before I started following the sport, what was the reason for not going for the triple crown?
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#4
11-16-2010, 04:53 PM
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Coastal beat him:  Coastal was a close 3rd to Affirmed and Bid in the 12f race following the last one shown on the pp cut above.
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#5
11-17-2010, 09:43 AM
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I have always thought he was top 5. Traveling all over and setting record after record at different distances, much of the time under Ronnie Franklin. WOW
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Do I think Charity can win? Well, I am walking around in yesterday's suit.
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#7
11-17-2010, 11:09 AM
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General Assembly was the 7:5 favorite in the Champagne.
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Just more nebulous nonsense from BBB
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#8
11-17-2010, 11:17 AM
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I have PP's for horses like Dr. Fager, Citation and Native Dancer - but I don't have any way to gauge horses like that. I don't have access to chart books or results charts from that time - have no idea what their Ragozin figures look like - what their Beyers might look like - I don't have PP's of the competition they faced... so I feel totally in the dark about those horses. I'm sure Dr. Fager was an all-time great - but it gets tricky to even guess without the aid of a lot of stuff. Look at the Seattle Slew defeat to Exceller above - after watching that performance you'd think Seattle Slew was the greatest. However, I happen to think Seattle Slew might have only been the 5th or 6th best 3-year-old of the 70's. I've seen a lot of stuff that supports that belief. He did however run some truly awesome races at age 4...albeit his 4yo season is hardly the stuff of legend in terms of accomplishment... unlike his 2yo and 3yo season.
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#9
11-17-2010, 11:37 AM
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Fifth or sixth best 3yo - not disagreeing or agreeing, just curious who would be in that top five or six?
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The world's foremost expert on virtually everything on the Redskins 2010 season: "Im going to go out on a limb here. I say they make the playoffs."
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#10
11-17-2010, 04:34 PM
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Slew wasn't a fast horse on anyone's numbers and he ran against what really looked like very weak competition in the triple crown series. Slew's Ragozin figs going into his final 3 Derby preps were 7.25, 7.25, and 10. He won the KY Derby with a 7 - only one horse has since won the KY Derby with a Rag sheet number as slow or slower - that was Sea Hero - who also ran a 7. It wasn't just Ragozin - Beyer talked how weak Slew was on his figures as a 3yo in his book 'My $50,000 Year At The Races' - and how overrated he thought he was. Obviously - Slew's Derby win was easily one of the most impressive visually I've ever seen. It was awesome considering the big early trouble he had - but when you learn it was as slow as Sea Hero's .. that sure takes the sparkle off of it. Run Dusty Run was 2nd to him in the Derby and Belmont and 3rd in the Preakness - Iron Constitution was 2nd to him in the Preakness. These two aren't beasts. * Derby and Belmont 2nd place finishers 3yo season:  * Preakness 2nd place finisher  After the Belmont - Slew went out to Hollywood Park for his next start and tanked against 3yo's in a non-effort. He didn't run again that season. I realize he won the triple crown - Real Quiet came within a nose and arguably a smarter ride of doing so - Charismatic came close - and obviously no one considers them a better 3yo than a horse like Holy Bull. I thought Alydar was clearly better at 3.
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#11
11-17-2010, 11:48 AM
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#12
11-17-2010, 01:58 PM
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#13
11-17-2010, 04:47 PM
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He was sensationally fast on the Ragozin's at both age 3 and age 4 and through all parts of those two seasons. From '70 to '99 - only Secretariat (0.75) ran a faster Kentucky Derby number than Bid (1.75) From '70 to '99 - Spend a Buck was the only Derby winner to ever run a faster number than Bid in a Derby prep race. As a 4-year-old - Bid ran the fastest rag sheet number ever - and it was not broken until Congaree's first Cigar Mile win more than 20 years later.
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#14
11-17-2010, 02:05 PM
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The quote on the first page about Bid's 4yo year being the best since Tom Fool is what made me think of Dr. Fager. I realize it's difficult to compare different eras and it's splitting hairs when comparing top 5 all time, but Dr. Fager sometimes get forgotten because he didn't run the triple crown races. I couldn't find PPs but here his is 4yo year when he won Champion Sprint Horse, Co-champion Turf Horse, Champion Older Male and Horse of the Year: Won the 7F Roseben @ Belmont carrying 130 and was 1/5 off track record Won the 8.5F Californian @ Hollywood carrying 130 over Gamely Won the 10F Suburban @ Belmont carrying 132 giving 2 pounds to Damascus equaling the track record 2nd in the 10F Brooklyn @ Aqueduct carrying 135 giving 5 pounds to Damascus who used a rabbit to win Won the 9F Whitney @ Saratoga by 8 carrying 132 giving 18 pounds to the field Won the 8F Washington Park @ Arlington carrying 134 and set the world record in 132 1/5. He ran the 2nd quarter in 20 3/5 Won the 9.5F United Nations @ Monmouth in his only turf start carrying 134 and giving 16 pounds to grass champion Fort Marcy Won the 7F Vosburgh @ Aqueduct carrying 139! after Nerud supposedly asked for 145 and broke the track record by a full second
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#15
11-16-2010, 07:48 PM
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#16
11-16-2010, 07:50 PM
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