Perhaps the best female to race in the last 5 years?

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

It is difficult for a filly to defeat males at a Classic distance on dirt. That makes Rachel Alexandra's Preakness win all the more amazing.

Uh, dumbass, did you miss that last paragraph of CH's post?

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Uh, dumbass, did you miss that last paragraph of CH's post?

So, it is common for a filly to win the Preakness? Hmm, someone alert Leroy Jolley and D. Wanye Lukas.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

So, it is common for a filly to win the Preakness? Hmm, someone alert Leroy Jolley and D. Wanye Lukas.

Didn't you know that the day after the Belmont is run, it becomes official that all three year old males are caught up to their filly counterparts?

That's how shitty ass fillies like RA or R2R were able to win those classics. They were picking on immature male horses.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

So, it is common for a filly to win the Preakness? Hmm, someone alert Leroy Jolley and D. Wanye Lukas.

It's not common for any filly to beat the best 3YO colts in the world in a Classic race. Only the special ones can do that. But it's easier than beating the best fully matured older horses at Classic distances on dirt.

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

It's not common for any filly to beat the best 3YO colts in the world in a Classic race. Only the special ones can do that. But it's easier than beating the best fully matured older horses at Classic distances on dirt.

Which makes Jolypha's third in the 1992 Classic even more amazing. It was her first start in North America and her first start on dirt. She finished two lengths behind 3yo HOY AP Indy and a 1/2 length behind champion older horse Pleasant Tap. Behind her were very good older horses like Strike The Gold, Hollywood Gold Cup winner Sultry Song, Strub winner Defensive Play, Meadowlands Cup winner and Classic runner-up Twilight Agenda, and Hollywood Gold Cup winner Marquetry.

[Danzig]

and here i figured the distaffers didn't get a lot of wins vs boys because there aren't that many attempts made here. now, overseas, it's far more common..and it seems there are far more celebrated females because of that. goldikova isn't considered special because once a year she ventures a start vs males-unlike other mares who are allowed to be brave once a year. goldikova, ouija board, sunline, makybe diva, etc will be fondly remembered because they repeatedly took on the best in open races, paying their owners and bettors well for taking the chance. before freddy head made history with his three-peating filly, he won twice as a rider on miesque, another great mare who wasn't treated like a hothouse flower.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and here i figured the distaffers didn't get a lot of wins vs boys because there aren't that many attempts made here. now, overseas, it's far more common..and it seems there are far more celebrated females because of that. goldikova isn't considered special because once a year she ventures a start vs males-unlike other mares who are allowed to be brave once a year. goldikova, ouija board, sunline, makybe diva, etc will be fondly remembered because they repeatedly took on the best in open races, paying their owners and bettors well for taking the chance. before freddy head made history with his three-peating filly, he won twice as a rider on miesque, another great mare who wasn't treated like a hothouse flower.

Danzig, he qualified his statement saying that it is for dirt only. Therefore, Europe doesn't count.

Since older mares race against older males in this country, at a classic distance, about once every 3-4 years, I guess he's right!

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and here i figured the distaffers didn't get a lot of wins vs boys because there aren't that many attempts made here. now, overseas, it's far more common..and it seems there are far more celebrated females because of that. goldikova isn't considered special because once a year she ventures a start vs males-unlike other mares who are allowed to be brave once a year. goldikova, ouija board, sunline, makybe diva, etc will be fondly remembered because they repeatedly took on the best in open races, paying their owners and bettors well for taking the chance. before freddy head made history with his three-peating filly, he won twice as a rider on miesque, another great mare who wasn't treated like a hothouse flower.

Danzig,

I am sure you understand that turf and dirt races develop differently.

Turf paces tend to be a lot slower and put a premium on late speed. That tends to bring the horses together because they often don't do any serious and demanding running until the final few furlongs.

As a result of this development issue, the gap between fillies/mares and males is smaller on turf than it is on dirt where the very best horses often run hard from start to finish, exhaust, and put away their inferior rivals.

The gap between the average winning speed figure for males and females on turf tends to be narrower all the way down the class spectrum than it is on dirt further providing objective evidence for what we observe on the track.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Danzig,

I am sure you understand that turf and dirt races develop differently.

Turf paces tend to be a lot slower and put a premium on late speed. That tends to bring the horses together because they often don't do any serious and demanding running until the final few furlongs.

As a result of this development issue, the gap between fillies/mares and males is smaller on turf than it is on dirt where the very best horses often run hard from start to finish, exhaust, and put away their inferior rivals.

The gap between the average winning speed figure for males and females on turf tends to be narrower all the way down the class spectrum than it is on dirt further providing objective evidence for what we observe on the track.

Wow, in less than 24 hours, you've bested The Bid's all time stupidest Derby Trail post!

Jesus, what the hell is wrong with me? I was warned in a PM not to engage you in a dialog of any sort, that we'd all be sorry.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

Which makes Jolypha's third in the 1992 Classic even more amazing. It was her first start in North America and her first start on dirt. She finished two lengths behind 3yo HOY AP Indy and a 1/2 length behind champion older horse Pleasant Tap. Behind her were very good older horses like Strike The Gold, Hollywood Gold Cup winner Sultry Song, Strub winner Defensive Play, Meadowlands Cup winner and Classic runner-up Twilight Agenda, and Hollywood Gold Cup winner Marquetry.

I think that was a magnificent performance. Unfortunately very few handicappers talk about her or comprehend what she did there because they don't comprehend the differences between turf and dirt racing and how much more difficult it is to do that at 10F on dirt.

I was and still am less familiar with Jolypha's overall record, her trips etc... than I am with most US based horses, but I think it's highly likely she was a great mare if that wasn't a "one time" peak dirt performance or trip that enabled her to run big. Even though I was a huge fan and serious handicapper at the time, I don't recall the details of that race and didn't have a full understanding and appreciation for what she did at the time either.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I think that was a magnificent performance. Unfortunately very few handicappers talk about her or comprehend what she did there because they don't comprehend the differences between turf and dirt racing and how much more difficult it is to do that at 10F on dirt.

Clearly you do not comprehend the concept like you think you do.

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I was and still am less familiar with Jolypha's overall record, her trips etc... than I am with most US based horses, but I think it's highly likely she was a great mare if that wasn't a "one time" peak dirt performance or trip that enabled her to run big. Even though I was a huge fan and serious handicapper at the time, I don't recall the details of that race and didn't have a full understanding and appreciation for what she did at the time either.

She was a three year old filly coming from Europe.

She is a full sister to Dancing Brave (a beloved turf horse in Europe), so come to think of it, I now understand your theory about why a turf filly is more likely to beat males than a dirt one.

It finally came together for me.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Clearly you do not comprehend the concept like you think you do.





She was a three year old filly coming from Europe.

She is a full sister to Dancing Brave (a beloved turf horse in Europe), so come to think of it, I now understand your theory about why a turf filly is more likely to beat males than a dirt one.

It finally came together for me.

I know she was a 3YO filly from Europe. That's what made the performance so extraordinary. What I don't have is trip notes or a familiarity with her competition in Europe before she came here to evaluate her entire career and put it in perspective.