Secretariat Vs. Spectacular Bid

#1 10-09-2006, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Comparing raw times on different coasts 26 years apart is not really very scientific is it?

No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?

#2 10-09-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?

About 25 lengths.

#3 10-09-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

About 25 lengths.

Only 25? I was thinking 30-40.

#4 10-09-2006, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Only 25? I was thinking 30-40.

Depends on how much Shoemaker had to drink the night before.

#5 10-09-2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Depends on how much Shoemaker had to drink the night before.

Ok, so maybe 25 was a better gauge when you factor that in. My apologies.

repent · #6 10-10-2006, 02:04 AM

I have no freaking clue which one was better b/c they ran like 7 years apart and never faced each other.
I would tend to think SBid was a better 1 turn horse, but its just speculation.

the debate, and the b/c of my age its the only one I find interesting, is who is the best dirt horse since Spectacular Bid.
the common and probably safest answer would be Cigar.
Its a valid response, but I would disagree.

Mineshaft or Ghostzapper would get my vote.

i have trouble placing Leading the Parade in a histortical perspective b/c I dont think his career is over yet.

Repent

King Glorious · #7 10-10-2006, 10:38 AM

What I absolutely HATE is when people say that a horse is "not in the same class as so and so YET". That is the dumbest statement that can be made. If u think that if Bernardini wins the Classic the same way as he's been winning his other starts will put him into the all-time great conversation, wouldn't that mean that today, he's already there? What I mean is that the talent is already there. The only thing that he doesn't have yet are enough accomplishments. Some of u that base your arguments on what a horse accomplishes, yeah, I can understand your holding off on putting Bernardini into the conversation. But if he does end up doing the things u need to see him do in order to be moved up on your lists, it has to mean that the talent was there all along. If that's the case, what is so wrong with putting him up there now? It's like with Michael Jordan. It didn't take him winning six titles for me to realize that he was the greatest player I'd ever seen. I knew that after watching him play four years. Ability doesn't always have to be matched by accomplishments for me.

Cannon Shell · #8 10-09-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?

He might stll be able to beat him!!!

randallscott35 · #9 10-09-2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

No its not, but I believe I read data by one of the sheet companies(TG or Rag) who said he was incredible, and faster than Secretariat.
1:57, even if run DOWNHILL on concrete is damn fast.
How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?

Lol, yes its not fair that Bernie has not met the top boys yet, but again Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's are just plain patsies. Do it in the Cup against the best. Then we can talk.

Cannon Shell · #10 10-09-2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Lol, yes its not fair that Bernie has not met the top boys yet, but again Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's are just plain patsies. Do it in the Cup against the best. Then we can talk.

All this talk of Secretariat and Spectacular Bid makes you realize that "the best" aint really very good anymore.

#11 10-09-2006, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

All this talk of Secretariat and Spectacular Bid makes you realize that "the best" aint really very good anymore.

I think thats kinda the point Randall is making, and if hes not I am.
Just read the pages and pages of glorification that a horse who beats Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's hero gets. Its a sick joke. yeah he can run, hes really good, no doubt. But great? Hes beaten injured horses with easy trips in small fields in not brilliant times. I'm sorry but mentioning him as a great really defames horses like Bid, Slew, Secretariat, Affirmed, etc. This is a travesty.

randallscott35 · #12 10-09-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think thats kinda the point Randall is making, and if hes not I am.
Just read the pages and pages of glorification that a horse who beats Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's hero gets. Its a sick joke. yeah he can run, hes really good, no doubt. But great? Hes beaten injured horses with easy trips in small fields in not brilliant times. I'm sorry but mentioning him as a great really defames horses like Bid, Slew, Secretariat, Affirmed, etc. This is a travesty.

Right on, and mike, you know if he retires after the BCC, people will put him in that category.

#13 10-09-2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think thats kinda the point Randall is making, and if hes not I am.
Just read the pages and pages of glorification that a horse who beats Wanderin Boy and Andromeda's hero gets. Its a sick joke. yeah he can run, hes really good, no doubt. But great? Hes beaten injured horses with easy trips in small fields in not brilliant times. I'm sorry but mentioning him as a great really defames horses like Bid, Slew, Secretariat, Affirmed, etc. This is a travesty.

Well said. I was starting to lose it with all of the Bernardino goo gooism going on.

#14 10-09-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Well said. I was starting to lose it with all of the Bernardino goo gooism going on.

Well I mean, I guess its not appropriate to call a spade a spade anymore. Its really not. But I'm going to now:
Withers- 5 horse field in which 2nd and 3rd place Doc Cheney and Luxembourg have been soundly beaten in allowances since then, not one win between them. Gee swell.
Preakness- Barbaro breaks down, Brother Derek bangs his head in the gate and runs while bleeding and in pain and is rank. Sweet Saint runs like drunken tired sailor in the lane exhausted from a hard campaign and still hasn't run back yet. Third place horse is the "mighty hemingway's key. Gee swell!!!
Jim Dandy- Makes a loose crawling lead in the slop and once again defeats the mighty Key. Awesome dude.
Travers- Bluegrass fractures a leg, later said by jock he knew something wasn't right with him early on. Sets slow pace and beats 2nd place horse with fracture. gee swell.
JCGC- Beats a confirmed dime stopper in Wanderin, and a failed allowance horse in Andromeda. Another pedestrian pace, a VERY lackluster 2:01 on a fast track that yields an 8 flat 6F earlier on. One of the slowest runnings.
yawn.

Please show me the greatness. VERY GOOD yes, great no.

randallscott35 · #15 10-09-2006, 07:43 PM

Dahoss,

He needs to come back as a 4 yr old. It's really really important. He's great. But to call him an alltime great he'll need to run next year and win the BCC this year.

randallscott35 · #16 10-09-2006, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

All this talk of Secretariat and Spectacular Bid makes you realize that "the best" aint really very good anymore.

Excellent point.

Danzig · #17 10-09-2006, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

All this talk of Secretariat and Spectacular Bid makes you realize that "the best" aint really very good anymore.

someone...finley maybe?...wrote after GZ retired that 'great isn't so great anymore'. he was right. we're in the 'modern' era now. and it stinks. don't have many sportsman or women anymore--it's all business. and business is booming, but stars are scarce.

#18 10-09-2006, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

How many lengths do you figure ole Bid woulda beat a horse like Wanderin Boy by?

Why dwell on the hypothetical ... when we have an actual margin of victory to ponder?

Have you ever heard of the horse who won a G1 Classic by 31 lengths?

Hint: His name wasn't Spectacular Bid.

randallscott35 · #19 10-09-2006, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Why dwell on the hypothetical ... when we have an actual margin of victory to ponder?

Have you ever heard of the horse who won a G1 Classic by 31 lengths?

Hint: His name wasn't Spectacular Bid.

Actually how many lengths does it take to win wire to wire and never have anyone behind you? B/c Spec Bid has a walkover, did Sec have one of those. What is that 300 lengths? I'm not good at math, don't teach that.

#20 10-09-2006, 07:45 PM

In arguing these two GREATS, has it occurred to anyone that labeling Bern in the same category is absolute insanity?