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#1
10-09-2006, 07:16 PM
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I actually think Point Given is an excellent comparison to Bernardini and a compliment to both of them. 
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#2
10-09-2006, 07:47 PM
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Now, Bernardini can't be compared with horses like Seattle Slew and Bid right now because most people wouldn't be able to handle it, but I think he will by the time he is done ......just my opinion.. I think he's better than Ghostzapper right now......again, just my opinion....
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#3
10-09-2006, 08:15 PM
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Here's a serious question because I really don't know the answer and I'm hoping someone here does. How can they give Bernardini a Beyer Figure that's considered remotely accurate without having any (or very very few) Mile and a quarter races on the dirt at Belmont?? And that can go for any horse at any track.. The beyer number Bernardini received made me think of it is all.
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#4
10-09-2006, 08:21 PM
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How could you even give Beyers to horses like Bernardini and Discreet Cat when they aren't even asked to brake a sweat? Does that mean we can add like 10 points to their Beyer to compensate for if they were actually asked to lay down and run.....Bernardini's 117 and Discreet Cat's 115 in their last races were giving speed figures for workouts....
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#5
10-09-2006, 08:23 PM
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Funny, but some would say that horses like bernardini would perform worse if seriously challenged. I, for one, doubt they could perform a lot better. But, hey, what do I know.
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#6
10-09-2006, 08:33 PM
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And I agree with you about them "not being asked." I watched the jcgc and saw Castellano still as a statue, but it still looked like Bernardini was running his ass off. Maybe the whip will discourage him.. It doesn't always make them run much faster. Last edited by TitanSooner : 10-09-2006 at 10:30 PM.
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#7
10-09-2006, 08:37 PM
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Has Bernardini ever put up a Sheet# that compares to GZ or St. Liam? The best I have seen is a -2, I don't think he can really be considered great unless he cracks the -4 range on Thoro...If not, he's really no different than Smarty, Afleet Alex, Point Given, or Flower Alley for that matter...
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#8
10-09-2006, 08:38 PM
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I don't believe that just because a horse looks like he's not working hard, that he suddenly will pick up and go faster when he has to...
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#9
10-09-2006, 09:13 PM
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#10
10-09-2006, 09:12 PM
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None of these could compute those efforts...the point is that if you keep up with the upper echelon of mainstream racing you shouldn't need somebody to quantify how good a race was....you obviously love Mr. Beyer so I'll just leave it at that....If I had a nickel for everytime he was wrong in his columns I'd be more rich a lot moreso than most any other handicapper's columns I have read on consistent basis...just saying...
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#11
10-09-2006, 11:48 PM
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OK, Joel, you asked for it. First I will deal with the stupidity of your earlier post where you suggested the Beyer figs were meaningless because in your opinion, whether right or wrong, the horse did not give a maximum effort, Anybody that understands speed figures, which you apparantly don't because of this comment on your part, realizes they are nothing more than a numerical analyisis of how a horse ran on that given day....whether they are Beyers, Ragozins or Jerry Browns. It is up to a horseplayer, or analyst, to decide if they felt the horse could have run faster. The number is based on the final time of that race. I am shocked you didn't realize this. Secondly, your elitist comment that Ragozins are somehow better because they are more expensive is really correlated to your opinion I dealt with in my first paragraph. You obviously don't understand speed figures. Personally, I don't like Ragozin's numbers, or the Thorographs for that matter, because I do not believe in their use of certain variables. I don't like them because, unlike you, I actually understand them. I think weight is meaningless and they don't. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but for my handicapping my feeling about weight works. I believe that the fact that the Fall Highweight produces the same relative base numbers year in and year out substantiates my opinion. If others disagree....fine. I also strongly disagree with them adding ground loss to their numbers. First of all, and probably most importantly, I think ground loss is deceptive and many times horses making wide moves are getting better trips than horses that save ground. For this reason, in addition to possible track biases, I believe adding ground loss to figures perverts and effectively ruins the numbers. This is why I prefer a base number like the Beyer figures, as since I do extensive trip analysis, I can extrapolate from a base figure how I believe the horse actually ran. I do not denigrate others for liking the Ragozins or Thorographs, and have great intellectual respect for them, I just don't like them personally. And, finally, since you decided to make this personal with your " you obviously love Mr. Beyer " comment, let me just detail how lame that is....along with your idiotic addition " If I had a nickel for everytime he was wrong in his columns I'd be more rich a lot moreso than most any other handicapper's columns I have read on consistent basis...". Yes, Andy Beyer is a friend of mine, this is established, but if you think that is why I like his numbers then you have paid zero attention to my posts. I form my own opinions, I respect some opinions that I don't agree with, but I don't buy somebody's logic because I happen to like them personally and your suggestion of such is insulting...which is funny coming from you who whined recently about somebody unfortunately taking comments in an argument personally. This underhanded comment from you was nothing if not personal. Am I mad? No...but I think you're an ass for making that comment. Not as much of an ass, of course, as you are for the other quote from you. Sorry if you fail to see Andy Beyer's contributions to this industry, but quite frankly, I would love to see your list of others who have contributed more and frankly from someone like you that comment just smacks of pathetic jealousy. Last edited by blackthroatedwind : 10-09-2006 at 11:57 PM.
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#12
10-09-2006, 08:50 PM
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#13
10-09-2006, 09:17 PM
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Hybrid Mode
