Polytrack devils advocates please respond

Originally Posted by todko

I live about 45-50 minutes north of Polyway (Turfway), and I've played the poly probably as much as anyone.

One of the problems for the handicapper is that Polyway keeps changing the poly. Some here probably don't know, but back in March they scraped the top 3 inches off and really didn't publicize the move. I found out through some contacts in Louisville who ran horses there. This "insider" info (if you want to call it that) literally saved my posterior from possibly a losing season. The scraped it to lower the kickback and make the surface faster going into Lanes End Day. Eventually the news hit the press in a limited manner.

This was before the recent changes (scraping it again and adding a new top layer with spandex, wire/cable coverings, and heavier wax coating for the sand) during the off season this summer.

It's a tough surface to play and it's even tougher because they keep changing it. It's like trying to hit a moving target. If it was supposedly that great from the start (as Polyway and Keeneland said) then why all the changes?

I'll tell you clearly, trainers don't necessarily hate it but they also say that they have horses that just don't run on it. I've even heard the term "non-poly" horse being used.

No, I'm not going to name names. And the reason for that is, around here, if a trainer or jockey speaks poorly about a track then that same trainer or jockey is likely to be escorted off the premises and told to never return. Just ask Rodney Prescott (or even Shane Sellers [whereever he is these days]),

Circular Quay is obviously the best horse in the race. Do I have faith enough to take a plunge at those odds. Not a chance. Circular Quay might be a "non-poly" horse and to take that risk at those odds is truly foolish. Yeah, throw him in your 50 cent P4s and at the top of your dime supers, but don't bet the house on him. It's not worth it at those odds.

During the winter meet I had heard through the grapevine that over 20 horses had serious hoof problems due to the stuff getting stuck and causing infection.

Any truth to that?

[todko]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

During the winter meet I had heard through the grapevine that over 20 horses had serious hoof problems due to the stuff getting stuck and causing infection.

Any truth to that?

I hadn't heard that at all. If that was the case then the groom wasn't doing his or her job. I heard some about soft tissue injuries -- Polyway came back and said that it due to trainers bringing "unfit" horses in.

If you stand at the rail and watch the horses come back you can see horses that obviously do not like to breathe the poly. They snort excessively -- almost like they inhaled an allergen or irritant. Sure, you see that to a limited extent on the dirt also.

It smells hugely bad. I don't know if that makes certain horses uncomfortable.

I'll be at Keeneland tomorrow. It will be interesting to check that out.

If I can stay away from the hottie co-eds and the beer stand .

Originally Posted by todko

I hadn't heard that at all. If that was the case then the groom wasn't doing his or her job. I heard some about soft tissue injuries -- Polyway came back and said that it due to trainers bringing "unfit" horses in.

If you stand at the rail and watch the horses come back you can see horses that obviously do not like to breathe the poly. They snort excessively -- almost like they inhaled an allergen or irritant. Sure, you see that to a limited extent on the dirt also.

It smells hugely bad. I don't know if that makes certain horses uncomfortable.

I'll be at Keeneland tomorrow. It will be interesting to check that out.

If I can stay away from the hottie co-eds and the beer stand .

Hey when you go to Keeneland the last thing on your mind should be the races. That's why you cap it and bet 'em before you get to the track.

I'll be there Wednesday. Can't wait.

I already have picked against Circular Quay in this race. I think he has ability but I think the horses in this race have developed into very good 2 year olds. I think the talent in this field and the two turns will get Quay beat. The surface might play a little into the equation because it is indeed a different surface. I don't think the change in surface will be the culminating factor as to why Quay got beat.

Now, the question to you is this....will you admit that any horse can run over PolyTrack as long as Quay wins. Will you finally shut-up about the surface. heck if Quay can win on dirt and PolyTrack then surface should't matter. So if you want to call out the Poly supporters pre-race then you should be called out as well.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

During the winter meet I had heard through the grapevine that over 20 horses had serious hoof problems due to the stuff getting stuck and causing infection.

Any truth to that?

May cause Epm, herpes, Potomac horse fever too!

[Cannon Shell]

Personally I think that if you avoid wagering on Polytrack you are making a big mistake. One reason is that there are a lot of unknowns about the surface. Which means that the other players have no advantage on you. If you watch the races closely you may be able to identify trends before the betting public and sharp players do. For instance there was a day at Turfway last week where the track was favoring speed very strongly. The track was also playing much faster in spirnts versus routes the same day. That is powerful info because very few people are aware of the trend. Also traditional sheet numbers are not as accurate on polytrack because there are days where the outside paths are much superior to the rail, therefore giving better numbers to the winners than they should get based upon the old methodology.
The richest people in this world capitalize on chaos and being ahead of the curve. That opportunity clearly presents itself here. Maybe you should temper your bets where you are wagering a smaller % than you usually would, but to put your head in the sand and say that you wont wager on it, and maybe miss some tremendous opportunities, seems a little narrowminded.

BTW- Regarding With a City, the connections of that horse have produced some stunning upsets in the past in big races with horses that never had shown that kind of form and never did again. Also the field was basically an allowance race from which very little has ever emerged out of.

[zippyneedsawin]

I'm a huge fan of CQ, but I wouldn't dare touch him this weekend. I have no idea how he'll take to the Polytrack. I'm hoping he stays wide and runs evenly to finish 3rd or 4th. That way maybe his odds are a little better when he runs back on the real stuff in the BC Juvy!

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

May cause Epm, herpes, Potomac horse fever too!

What would you know? You're only a trainer, LOL!!!

[Nostradamus]

I have never heard more bull from people that don't like the poly because it might be harder for them to handicap.

I expect the lies from Oracle, but everyone else surprises me.


Poly is here for good. Will be at NY tracks before 2010. Get used to it.

Please cite the lies. Shoot you don't even have the guts to post alone or reveal who you are. You and a bunch of other losers share id's and cower like the little tinkerbells that you are.
Losers.

The Polytrack isnt getting stuck in the hooves of the horses. They have solved that non-issue.

[sumitas]

it's the same surface for all so the best horse will likely win.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

During the winter meet I had heard through the grapevine that over 20 horses had serious hoof problems due to the stuff getting stuck and causing infection.

Any truth to that?

I believe Round pen answered that, forgive me please Round pen if I'm mistaken and it wasn't you.
I think Round pen said that the trainers were using no stick cooking spray to keep it from sticking to the horses legs and feet.

[cloud_break]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I believe Round pen answered that, forgive me please Round pen if I'm mistaken and it wasn't you.
I think Round pen said that the trainers were using no stick cooking spray to keep it from sticking to the horses legs and feet.

They are using cooking spray - it works pretty well actually. I'm pretty sure they came up with the idea in the winter. Supposedly, they weren't gonna have to bathe the horses b/c the poly wasn't dirt, but it was sticking to them anyway. Necessity is the mother of invention.

There is truth to the rumor of hoof problems. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "foot" problems. Horses are carrying heat in their feet where they hadn't before poly. I heard an interesting theory that it's carpet burn. We all got a few of those in college. The more you think about the make-up of poly, the more the theory makes sense-after all-it has carpet fibers in it.

I also think the carpet burn theory might explain some horses not taking to poly. It might be "burning" their feet. Might also help explain why training on the surface and racing on the surface are two entirely different things.

Another thing in this general area, and Oracle or anyone who's talked to trainers could verify this, the trainers really don't know how to shoe the horses for this surface. In this area its all trial and error. Worst part is, you can't establish a trainer pattern because each horse is so different on the stuff, no one trainer has figured it out for each individual horse.

[disrespectnfool]

well, i'm a speed guy, here;s my order of rank:
Great Hunter
Street Sense
Circular Quay
for all that's worth, considering they are 2YO's

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

During the winter meet I had heard through the grapevine that over 20 horses had serious hoof problems due to the stuff getting stuck and causing infection.

Any truth to that?

well whos the grapevine? dont go after the surface for that go after the trainer! those problems will happen whether its poly or regular dirt if the horses arent maintained properly EVERYDAY, in this case it means having their feet picked after training