Crist: The great distaffers..

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

I didn't realize Personal Ensign only raced once out of N.Y, this made me smile because I found this ironic in light of the Zenyatta debate.

She raced twice outside of NY.

Regardless, why didn't you bring up Lady's Secret, as she should be the horse that Zenyatta is linked to being that she usurped Lady's Secret's legacy at Oak Tree?

I don't recall.....what was her geographic distribution?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

She raced twice outside of NY.

Regardless, why didn't you bring up Lady's Secret, as she should be the horse that Zenyatta is linked to being that she usurped Lady's Secret's legacy at Oak Tree?

I don't recall.....what was her geographic distribution?

The last three numbers following each horse are the starts in Cal-Ky-NY

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

The last three numbers following each horse are the starts in Cal-Ky-NY

I was being facetious.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I was being facetious.

I thought so but no harm in taking it at face value. Interesting list of the three that never raced in NY and never will.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

I thought so but no harm in taking it at face value. Interesting list of the three that never raced in NY and never will.

That's because of the BC. Championships had to be earned through NY in the past.

They also had to be earned on the racetrack.

[Kasept]

You know who is frequently absent from these discussions.. and I don't know why.. is LATE BLOOMER.

She may not have had the sustained dominance of some of those above, but at her best, (her 4yo championship season), she was was about as good on BOTH turf and dirt as any filly over the period in question.

[rgustafson]

I think Paseana provides a decent comparison to Zenyatta so far with respect to races run in(obviously disregarding the surface). She raced 28 times in North America finishing first or second in 24 of those races, virtually all Grade I or Grade II. She finished third once and out of the money three times. The third place and one of the out of the money finishes both came in 1995 when she was 8 yrs. old and at the end of her career. Through her career at six, she had raced 19 times and raced outside of California 6 times. Two of those races were wins in the Apple Blossom at Oaklawn(sound familiar?),two of the races were in the Spinster at Keeneland(probably the biggest difference in their schedules) and one of those races outside of California was at Gulfstream where she won the Breeders Cup Distaff in 1992. We still have a couple of races unaccounted for, they were her other two out of the momey finishes. The first was in the second running of the Pacific Classic against males where she finished 5th. The other race was easily the worst race of her career and her only race in New York. It was the Grade I Ruffian at Belmont where she was last in a five horse field beaten some 20 lengths. Couldn't beat top male horses on dirt and couldn't win in New York. Obviously not one of the all time greats.

[Kasept]

The distribution Crist used was just CA, KY and NY, so in terms of that, it wouldn't include BC's in FL or MTH, LS, etc., or other significant stakes at Arlington, Fair Grounds, Hialeah-Gulfstream, et al, for example...

[randallscott35]

I would take Riboletta over Zenyatta every day of the week.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I would take Riboletta over Zenyatta every day of the week.

Not on synth, maybe, but Riboletta was faster on dirt.....by a city block.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Not on synth, maybe, but Riboletta was faster on dirt.....by a city block.

looked that way at Churchill

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

looked that way at Churchill

It's very easy to tell partial truths if you don't really want to have a discussion that involves getting to the truth. This is what gets to the heart of your side of the debate ( even though you pretend you aren't involved ).

[CSC]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

She raced twice outside of NY.

Regardless, why didn't you bring up Lady's Secret, as she should be the horse that Zenyatta is linked to being that she usurped Lady's Secret's legacy at Oak Tree?

I don't recall.....what was her geographic distribution?

I think you would agree that Personal Ensign has been linked more to Zenyatta than Lady's Secret from what I have heard on the internet and read on forums, so my smile shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by CSC

I think you would agree that Personal Ensign has been linked more to Zenyatta than Lady's Secret from what I have heard on the internet and read on forums, so my smile shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

I couldn't possibly care less what people on the internet, with generally no overview of racing history, use to compare racehorses. Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. Since you brought her up, however, I will add that while racing in NY she did face males in one of NY's biggest stake races ( the Whitney ). No shame in staying home. However, a challenge here or there never hurts.

Be that as it may, Lady's Secret was owned by Eugene Klein, who also owned the San Diego Chargers, so unlike the Phipps family, and like the connections of your darling, he was based on the West Coast. Now, while obviously if someone wanted a championship campaign, ya know....wanted to earn it and not declare it, they needed to run in NY ( especially in the days of racing before the internet when a campaign didn't rest only on a horse's laurels from one day ), he still ran close to half of her races at his home base. He found it possible to do a little ( OK, in her case, a lot ) of both.

You really need to take a good look at Lady's Secret's pps some time. Frankly, you should look at the pps of ALL of those on Steve Crist's list. It might give you some very needed perspective. It isn't that any sane person would ever even entertain the notion that Zenyatta is not a spectacular horse. It's just that some of us have a better sense of history than others.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. .

I don't want to get into a debate about comparing horses from different eras, its basically useless and futile.

I do find it odd though that you say that about the Phipps when the very same can be said about the owners of Zenyatta. Though she showed up in the sports biggest races (Breeders Cup, racings championship day) so its not like she skipped them because they were in NY.

Heck I remember one trainer in New York and had what would have been highly thought of horses for both the distaff and the sprint and said he had no interest in racing in California..............and this was when it was on dirt. No one even batted and eye brow in that case, go figure. Different standards is what is frustrating.

[brockguy]

Just to add to Goldikova's impressive credentials that 6 of her 9 G1 triumphs are against males!

[XIIPointStables]

I would love to browse the PPs of the horses in Steve's blog.

Can someone lend me $190 so I can do so?

[dagolfer33]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Just to add to Goldikova's impressive credentials that 6 of her 9 G1 triumphs are against males!

....psstt....be quiet. We arent discussing horses that ship all over the world and beat all comers. We are just trying our best to refute that Zenyatta belongs in the discussion of one of the greatest female horses in the U.S. of all time.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by dagolfer33

....psstt....be quiet. We arent discussing horses that ship all over the world and beat all comers. We are just trying our best to refute that Zenyatta belongs in the discussion of one of the greatest female horses in the U.S. of all time.

Don't forget, according to one of the Zenyattards here, Goldikova is nothing since she couldn't win the BCC, which is the only race that matters (unless Z doesn't run there).

I believe, but I could be mistaken, that it was the smoothest of the Zenyattards that said that.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I don't want to get into a debate about comparing horses from different eras, its basically useless and futile.

I do find it odd though that you say that about the Phipps when the very same can be said about the owners of Zenyatta. Though she showed up in the sports biggest races (Breeders Cup, racings championship day) so its not like she skipped them because they were in NY.

Heck I remember one trainer in New York and had what would have been highly thought of horses for both the distaff and the sprint and said he had no interest in racing in California..............and this was when it was on dirt. No one even batted and eye brow in that case, go figure. Different standards is what is frustrating.

If you took my entire comment you couldn't have made your argument.

Interesting.