I need to listen to ATR more often

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Why does it matter what Azeri or Personal Ensign did? Because those are some of the great mares that we are comparing Zenyatta to. Why should there be a double-standard? Why should Zenyatta have to travel all over the country to be considered great when Personal Ensign didn't? Why should Zenyatta have to run 5 times against the boys to be considered great when Azeri was considred great even though she never beat the boys? There is such a double-standard.

Who's we? I'm not comparing Zenyatta to anyone, and I just wrote at length about how doing so is a disservice to the horse. Maybe Personal Ensign and Azeri should've taken on more, maybe they shouldn't have. There are so many different factors that make up each individual horse's career and accomplishments, so I'm simply talking about Zenyatta right now. And what I've said is that she's not doing anything terribly significant for the most part. She's walking in her own footprints rather than making new ones, and that's unfortunate because it does very little to prove this "greatness" of hers that people insist on putting on a scale against the ghosts.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Who's we? I'm not comparing Zenyatta to anyone, and I just wrote at length about how doing so is a disservice to the horse. Maybe Personal Ensign and Azeri should've taken on more, maybe they shouldn't have. There are so many different factors that make up each individual horse's career and accomplishments, so I'm simply talking about Zenyatta right now. And what I've said is that she's not doing anything terribly significant for the most part. She's walking in her own footprints rather than making new ones, and that's unfortunate because it does very little to prove this "greatness" of hers that people insist on putting on a scale against the ghosts.

Alright, let's forget about horses from the past. Zenyatta is running in grade I after grade I. She has now won 8 grade I's in a row. She is obviously based in California. She already flew back to Oaklawn this year. She's going to fly to Churchill for the BC Classic later this year. How many trips back east should she make this year? How many times should she take on the boys?

I could see why people were skeptical last year before the BC Classic. I personally was not skeptical of her ability but I could see why others were. People said that she hadn't beaten the boys. People said that she never travels. People said that she doesn't run on the dirt. Then she beats the boys in the BC Classic and then she travels to Oaklawn and wins on the dirt. And yet it sill isn't enough. It's never enough. Even after she does what her detractors wanted her to do, the detractors are still knocking her. It's absurd.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Alright, let's forget about horses from the past. Zenyatta is running in grade I after grade I. She has now won 8 grade I's in a row. She is obviously based in California. She already flew back to Oaklawn this year. She's going to fly to Churchill for the BC Classic later this year. How many trips back east should she make this year? How many times should she take on the boys?

I could see why people were skeptical last year before the BC Classic. I personally was not skeptical of her ability but I could see why others were. People said that she hadn't beaten the boys. People said that she never travels. People said that she doesn't run on the dirt. Then she beats the boys in the BC Classic and then she travels to Oaklawn and wins on the dirt. And yet it sill isn't enough. It's never enough. Even after she does what her detractors wanted her to do, the detractors are still knocking her. It's absurd.

Oh stop it. That "Grade I" BS is a misleading argument and you know it. She's running in restricted races in her backyard against the same dreck over and over and people like you cry about us not being satisfied with that. She's so goddamn great, she should be able to ship more than twice a year, she should be able to face boys more than once a year. Hell, make her a quarter horse for a race or two, just do something different for once. She's accomplishing nothing but extending a meaningless winning streak and we'll never know how good she truly was because they refuse to break new ground with her.

[randallscott35]

That's why Byk's show is so good...and I don't kiss ass. He takes people to task when it needs to be done. Bravo.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Oh stop it. That "Grade I" BS is a misleading argument and you know it. She's running in restricted races in her backyard against the same dreck over and over and people like you cry about us not being satisfied with that. She's so goddamn great, she should be able to ship more than twice a year, she should be able to face boys more than once a year. Hell, make her a quarter horse for a race or two, just do something different for once. She's accomplishing nothing but extending a meaningless winning streak and we'll never know how good she truly was because they refuse to break new ground with her.

The "Grade I" thing is not misleading. Sure there are times when a certain division is weaker than at other times. But grade I races are the best races that there are. Those are the most prestigious races. You could argue the division is weak this year, but what about last year? What about the year before that? She's won 17 races in a row over the past 3 years. Was the division weak every year?

If you own a filly or mare and they win a grade I, their value as a broodmare skyrockets. Grade I races are the races that everyone wants to win. Nobody is holding back. The best fillies and mares are going to show up in the grade I's. Zenyatta can't run against better horses unless she takes on the boys, which she will do again in the BC Classic later this year.

I can't imagine the way you would have blasted Personal Ensign back in the 1980s for running her final race in the BC Dsitaff instead of the Classic.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The "Grade I" thing is not misleading. Sure there are times when a certain division is weaker than at other times. But grade I races are the best races that there are. Those are the most prestigious races. You could argue the division is weak this year, but what about last year? What about the year before that? She's won 17 races in a row over the past 3 years. Was the division weak every year?

If you own a filly or mare and they win a grade I, their value as a broodmare skyrockets. Grade I races are the races that everyone wants to win. Nobody is holding back. The best fillies and mares are going to show up in the grade I's. Zenyatta can't run against better horses unless she takes on the boys, which she will do again in the BC Classic later this year.

I can't imagine the way you would have blasted Personal Ensign back in the 1980s for running her final race in the BC Dsitaff instead of the Classic.

I know what a Grade I is, thanks. The Grade I's she's winning are mostly Grade I's in name only.

Enough with the Personal Ensign comparisons. For some reason, Zenyatta fans can never just keep it about Zenyatta. PE was practically beating a different species of filly than Zenyatta is, and you know it. Once again, apples and oranges.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I can't imagine the way you would have blasted Personal Ensign back in the 1980s for running her final race in the BC Dsitaff instead of the Classic.

didnt the phipps already have a pretty potent entry in that classic?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

didnt the phipps already have a pretty potent entry in that classic?

It was so long ago I don't remember. Who did they have in there?

By the way, I wasn't really knocking them for not running in there. I was just trying to make a point that it's very rare even for the great fillies to run in the Classic. I don't know why there is this double-standard when it comes to Zenyatta.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It was so long ago I don't remember. Who did they have in there?

By the way, I wasn't really knocking them for not running in there. I was just trying to make a point that it's very rare even for the great fillies to run in the Classic. I don't know why there is this double-standard when it comes to Zenyatta.

seeking the gold and personal flag.

i dont think its a double standard. older males the last few years have been lacking in quality. we've seen time and time again that the fillies can compete and defeat the males. im sure if zenyatta resided in new york and was beating the same competition there would be an equal outcry.

i think it is actually a giant compliment to zenyatta that people want her to run against males.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It was so long ago I don't remember. Who did they have in there?

By the way, I wasn't really knocking them for not running in there. I was just trying to make a point that it's very rare even for the great fillies to run in the Classic. I don't know why there is this double-standard when it comes to Zenyatta.

They had a horse named Seeking the Gold back then.

He was a pretty good sort.

[freddymo]

Let me get this right, Davidowitz compared Zenyatta running down St Trinians to Personal Ensign catching Winning Colors? Wow that's special.
I guess he has a huge opinion of St Trinian because Winning Colors was terriffic and she didnt have to be undefeated for people to understand her place in history.

As for PE's staying in NY most of career, who did she duck out west?

[Danzig]

and it's interesting the comparison to personal ensign. she didn't get HOY either....


and i don't recall mr. phipps and shug bitching about it.


you want to be the best? beat the best. run a top campaign. don't stay in your backyard and say you're king of the hill. that's what is required to be an all-timer.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and it's interesting the comparison to personal ensign. she didn't get HOY either....


and i don't recall mr. phipps and shug bitching about it.


you want to be the best? beat the best. run a top campaign. don't stay in your backyard and say you're king of the hill. that's what is required to be an all-timer.

Personal Ensign wasn't, as far as I know, even considered for the BC Classic. (I certainly don't fault anyone for THAT decision--running against Alysheba would have been daunting, to say the least.) BUT, Zenyatta's camp has set the BC Classic as their year-end goal regardless of who else is heading there. Likewise, they announced the Apple Blossom date well ahead of time REGARDLESS of who else was going to show up there.

Despite that, there is all this relentless whining about the schedule her connections have chosen for her. She's already won Grade I's on both synthetic and dirt, and we somehow just get more whining. What a bunch of cup-half-empty nonsense!

We have a 6-year-old mare that in the hands of 95% of owner/trainer would have been retired (and stayed retired) after being the first mare to win the BC Classic. Instead of retirement, we have the unexpected pleasure of watching this excellent mare run another half dozen times, including two trips east. Despite all of this that we could and should be absolutely savoring, we get a surprising number of otherwise sane people who jump at any opportunity to nitpick Zenyatta's accomplishments.

--Dunbar

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Personal Ensign wasn't, as far as I know, even considered for the BC Classic. (I certainly don't fault anyone for THAT decision--running against Alysheba would have been daunting, to say the least.) BUT, Zenyatta's camp has set the BC Classic as their year-end goal regardless of who else is heading there. Likewise, they announced the Apple Blossom date well ahead of time REGARDLESS of who else was going to show up there.

Despite that, there is all this relentless whining about the schedule her connections have chosen for her. She's already won Grade I's on both synthetic and dirt, and we somehow just get more whining. What a bunch of cup-half-empty nonsense!

We have a 6-year-old mare that in the hands of 95% of owner/trainer would have been retired (and stayed retired) after being the first mare to win the BC Classic. Instead of retirement, we have the unexpected pleasure of watching this excellent mare run another half dozen times, including two trips east. Despite all of this that we could and should be absolutely savoring, we get a surprising number of otherwise sane people who jump at any opportunity to nitpick Zenyatta's accomplishments.

--Dunbar

Right, we should all be falling all over ourselves thanking the Mosses for bringing her back to beat Taptam and St Trinians. The racing world would certainly collapse into dust were we not given that privilege.

It's nice that she's still running and her stretch runs are exciting in themselves, but I'm sorry, her campaign is boring and it doesn't nearly live up to the hyperbole we're smothered with by her connections and fans.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Right, we should all be falling all over ourselves thanking the Mosses for bringing her back to beat Taptam and St Trinians. The racing world would certainly collapse into dust were we not given that privilege.

It's nice that she's still running and her stretch runs are exciting in themselves, but I'm sorry, her campaign is boring and it doesn't nearly live up to the hyperbole we're smothered with by her connections and fans.

No, we shouldn't be thanking them for bringing her back to face Taptam. We should be thanking them for bringing her back this year to take on Rachel (which they tried to do). And we should thank them for bringing her back this year to defend her title in the BC Classic.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Right, we should all be falling all over ourselves thanking the Mosses for bringing her back to beat Taptam and St Trinians. The racing world would certainly collapse into dust were we not given that privilege.

It's nice that she's still running and her stretch runs are exciting in themselves, but I'm sorry, her campaign is boring and it doesn't nearly live up to the hyperbole we're smothered with by her connections and fans.

No, no, you are the correct one, Ateam. We should all continue to rant on about the cowardice of the Mosses when any typical owners would have just retired their Breeders Cup Classic champ. What in the world are the Mosses thinking? Bringing back a champ as a 6-yr-old and running her just twice in the East. Pointing their mare to the Breeder's Cup Classic, as if that's a tough race or anything! It's ridiculous, you're right. We should all be getting excited about next year's Kentucky Derby, or something, instead.

Look, would I rather see her facing males before the BC Classic? Sure. But in an age when pretty much every Grade I winner is a candidate for "He/She's done enough" and whisked off to the breeding shed, I'm EXTREMELY glad that they brought Zenyatta back to race again.

--Dunbar

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Personal Ensign wasn't, as far as I know, even considered for the BC Classic. (I certainly don't fault anyone for THAT decision--running against Alysheba would have been daunting, to say the least.) BUT, Zenyatta's camp has set the BC Classic as their year-end goal regardless of who else is heading there. Likewise, they announced the Apple Blossom date well ahead of time REGARDLESS of who else was going to show up there.

Despite that, there is all this relentless whining about the schedule her connections have chosen for her. She's already won Grade I's on both synthetic and dirt, and we somehow just get more whining. What a bunch of cup-half-empty nonsense!

We have a 6-year-old mare that in the hands of 95% of owner/trainer would have been retired (and stayed retired) after being the first mare to win the BC Classic. Instead of retirement, we have the unexpected pleasure of watching this excellent mare run another half dozen times, including two trips east. Despite all of this that we could and should be absolutely savoring, we get a surprising number of otherwise sane people who jump at any opportunity to nitpick Zenyatta's accomplishments.

--Dunbar

i don't think too many are nitpicking...until someone says she's the best ever, or when someone says she should be/should have been horse of the year. that's the type of stuff that gets her accomplishments and schedule scrutinized, and deservedly so.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't think too many are nitpicking...until someone says she's the best ever, or when someone says she should be/should have been horse of the year. that's the type of stuff that gets her accomplishments and schedule scrutinized, and deservedly so.

If that were true, I'd completely agree with you, Danzig. If it's just an argument about whether she's THE all-time best mare, I'll be the first to look at the choice of races, the level of competition. (As an aside that Cannon Shell might appreciate, I never forgave Floyd Patterson for the way he ducked Liston and others for so many years.)

But people here are denying that Zenyatta is even one of the best fillies/mares we've seen in the last 30 years. That is patently ridiculous, IMO.

So, rather than celebrating the fact that two of the best fillies of our time have mangaged to stay healthy and out of the breeding shed, we have countless posts tearing down one or the other.

--Dunbar

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Personal Ensign wasn't, as far as I know, even considered for the BC Classic. (I certainly don't fault anyone for THAT decision--running against Alysheba would have been daunting, to say the least.) BUT, Zenyatta's camp has set the BC Classic as their year-end goal regardless of who else is heading there. Likewise, they announced the Apple Blossom date well ahead of time REGARDLESS of who else was going to show up there.

Despite that, there is all this relentless whining about the schedule her connections have chosen for her. She's already won Grade I's on both synthetic and dirt, and we somehow just get more whining. What a bunch of cup-half-empty nonsense!

We have a 6-year-old mare that in the hands of 95% of owner/trainer would have been retired (and stayed retired) after being the first mare to win the BC Classic. Instead of retirement, we have the unexpected pleasure of watching this excellent mare run another half dozen times, including two trips east. Despite all of this that we could and should be absolutely savoring, we get a surprising number of otherwise sane people who jump at any opportunity to nitpick Zenyatta's accomplishments.

--Dunbar

you probably enjoy preseason football as well

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and it's interesting the comparison to personal ensign. she didn't get HOY either....


and i don't recall mr. phipps and shug bitching about it.


you want to be the best? beat the best. run a top campaign. don't stay in your backyard and say you're king of the hill. that's what is required to be an all-timer.

I don't think the Mosses or Shireffs ever claimed that Zenyatta was as good as Secretariat or anything like that. They know she's a mare and they treat her like a mare for the most part.

If they really thought she was as good as Secretariat, I'm sure they would be running her against the boys more often.