Romero, Azeri, PG, Best Pal make Hall; Vets add 3 inc. Pierce

parsixfarms · #1 06-01-2010, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

I can't really disagree with anything you said, there are no certainty's with this type of discussion. But do good sires elevate a horse's rep? Would Northern Dancer be considered as great a horse today had he not been such an outstanding sire? I'm not saying it is wrong or right, but we know it does.

I agree that becoming a good sire will help a horse's reputation, but there's a big difference between reputation and accomplishments. Another place this happens is how often the sale price of a yearling/2YO will impact that horse's reputation. For example, would Munnings have had the reputation that he enjoyed up until the Carter if he wasn't a $1.7 million 2YO?

CSC · #2 06-01-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I agree that becoming a good sire will help a horse's reputation, but there's a big difference between reputation and accomplishments. Another place this happens is how often the sale price of a yearling/2YO will impact that horse's reputation. For example, would Munnings have had the reputation that he enjoyed up until the Carter if he wasn't a $1.7 million 2YO?

Breeders are obsessed with bloodlines, we know this, look at Green Monkey, he was bought as a sire prospect despite being a complete failure as a racehorse.

The Alydar - Affirmed comparison is a perfect example of how people perceive horses as to how they fare in the breeding shed. I'm sure many still regard Alydar as the better of the 2.

foregos nuts · #3 06-01-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Breeders are obsessed with bloodlines, we know this, look at Green Monkey, he was bought as a sire prospect despite being a complete failure as a racehorse.

The Alydar - Affirmed comparison is a perfect example of how people perceive horses as to how they fare in the breeding shed. I'm sure many still regard Alydar as the better of the 2.

satish sanan bred the green monkey and sold him for 400K before he went for 16million at the 2yr old in training sale.

OldDog · #4 06-01-2010, 01:23 PM

Gary Stevens said that Point Given was the "best horse never to win the Triple Crown." Who am I to disagree?

At 9-3-0 out of 13 starts, I sure would have enjoyed seeing him campaign another year.

randallscott35 · #5 06-01-2010, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldDog

Gary Stevens said that Point Given was the "best horse never to win the Triple Crown." Who am I to disagree?

At 9-3-0 out of 13 starts, I sure would have enjoyed seeing him campaign another year.

I just threw up in my mouth.

Cannon Shell · #6 06-01-2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldDog

Gary Stevens said that Point Given was the "best horse never to win the Triple Crown." Who am I to disagree?

At 9-3-0 out of 13 starts, I sure would have enjoyed seeing him campaign another year.

I'm sure Spectacular Bid would beg to differ. Man o War just rolled over in his grave as well.

OldDog · #7 06-02-2010, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I just threw up in my mouth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm sure Spectacular Bid would beg to differ. Man o War just rolled over in his grave as well.

Well, you can tell Gary that the next time you see him.

parsixfarms · #8 06-01-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Breeders are obsessed with bloodlines, we know this, look at Green Monkey, he was bought as a sire prospect despite being a complete failure as a racehorse.

I doubt that The Green Monkey "was bought as a sire prospect." He stands in Florida for Hartley-DeRenzo, his 2YO sale consignors. Besides, it's not like Forestry is anywhere near the perceived stallion that he was a few years ago (down to $17,500 advertised fee from $100,000).

That being said, I do agree that modest race horses with good bloodlines may be given a chance at stud. Not that I am trying to make him out as more than he is (a decent NY stallion), but a horse like Freud would have never been given an opportunity at stud if he wasn't a sibling to Giant's Causeway.

philcski · #9 06-01-2010, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I doubt that The Green Monkey "was bought as a sire prospect." He stands in Florida for Hartley-DeRenzo, his 2YO sale consignors. Besides, it's not like Forestry is anywhere near the perceived stallion that he was a few years ago (down to $17,500 advertised fee from $100,000).

That being said, I do agree that modest race horses with good bloodlines may be given a chance at stud. Not that I am trying to make him out as more than he is (a decent NY stallion), but a horse like Freud would have never been given an opportunity at stud if he wasn't a sibling to Giant's Causeway.

OK... what was he bought to be then, a ride for the kiddies at a carnival?

That's a silly statement.

parsixfarms · #10 06-01-2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski

OK... what was he bought to be then, a ride for the kiddies at a carnival?

That's a silly statement.

Maybe I should clarify my thoughts. I doubt they paid much, if anything, to re-obtain him.

Cannon Shell · #11 06-01-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Maybe I should clarify my thoughts. I doubt they paid much, if anything, to re-obtain him.

Coolmore may still retain a piece of the horse.

Cannon Shell · #12 06-01-2010, 03:18 PM

Hartley/De Renzo has bought back into the horse and will partner with John Magnier.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/rac...e%20Renzo.aspx

parsixfarms · #13 06-01-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Coolmore may still retain a piece of the horse.

I'd imagine they would, should a miracle happen.

He covered 40 mares in 2009, so it's not like many outside breeders are rushing to him, if H/D are breeding 25 of their own to him.

philcski · #14 06-01-2010, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Maybe I should clarify my thoughts. I doubt they paid much, if anything, to re-obtain him.

If they only paid $20 to re-obtain him, and stand him as a stallion with the intention of selling breeding dates, he is a stallion prospect. End of story.

Cannon Shell · #15 06-01-2010, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski

If they only paid $20 to re-obtain him, and stand him as a stallion with the intention of selling breeding dates, he is a stallion prospect. End of story.

I think it was $9.99

Cannon Shell · #16 06-01-2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Breeders are obsessed with bloodlines, we know this, look at Green Monkey, he was bought as a sire prospect despite being a complete failure as a racehorse.

The Alydar - Affirmed comparison is a perfect example of how people perceive horses as to how they fare in the breeding shed. I'm sure many still regard Alydar as the better of the 2.

The Green Monkey is not a good example of breeders being obsessed with bloodlines. He surely wasnt purchased as a cheap stallion prospect based on his pedigree.

I don't know anyone who thinks Alydar was a better racehorse than Affirmed. I also don't know anyone who thinks Affirmed is a better sire than Alydar.