Excellent Angle: D Wayne Off

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

and yet any and every trainer in the country would trade thier resume for his anytime.

Yeah, that's real great if you don't give a crap about your horses.

I think that's the point, btw.

And yet, you don't seem to understand.

[eajinabi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Yeah, that's real great if you don't give a crap about your horses.

I think that's the point, btw.

And yet, you don't seem to understand.

Yeah you are right. I rather put those horses in the hands of a juicer and then present it as an illusion of a healthy horse.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

Yeah you are right. I rather put those horses in the hands of a juicer and then present it as an illusion of a healthy horse.

One of the main reasons Lukas did so well in the 80s was because he was one of the only guys using steroids. His 2 year olds were the size of 3 year olds. That's why he did so well with 2 year olds. And before you knew it, Lukas was spending $80-$100 million a year on horses while most other big trainers were spending $5 million a year. When you're one of the only guys using steroids and you're outspending everyone by 10x, it's no surprise that he won a ton of races.

After everyone else started using steroids, Lukas' edge was gone.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

One of the main reasons Lukas did so well in the 80s was because he was one of the only guys using steroids. His 2 year olds were the size of 3 year olds. That's why he did so well with 2 year olds. And before you knew it, Lukas was spending $80-$100 million a year on horses while most other big trainers were spending $5 million a year. When you're one of the only guys using steroids and you're outspending everyone by 10x, it's no surprise that he won a ton of races.

After everyone else started using steroids, Lukas' edge was gone.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty ironic, him talking about juice trainers like Lukas never did that.

In the future, please try to refrain from making sense when somebody babbles a bunch of diarrhea from their mouth.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

One of the main reasons Lukas did so well in the 80s was because he was one of the only guys using steroids. His 2 year olds were the size of 3 year olds. That's why he did so well with 2 year olds. And before you knew it, Lukas was spending $80-$100 million a year on horses while most other big trainers were spending $5 million a year. When you're one of the only guys using steroids and you're outspending everyone by 10x, it's no surprise that he won a ton of races.

After everyone else started using steroids, Lukas' edge was gone.

I'm certainly not a Lukas fan but how exactly is this different from what Pletcher or any of the big name trainers are doing presently. They get the best stock, they have the best vets, they win the most races. Lukas was using steroids, his juicer 'students' are relying on other types of meds. Same old ****. Tell you this much: take away the meds in racing and half of these (presently very successful) idiots couldn't train a poodle. They're frauds. The difference is Lukas is transparent to just about everyone while you, and others, put his juicer students on pedestals.

I mean, you're apparently in the game. Check out what's happening with regularity out in Southern Cali. I've been playing the ponies for over 30 years. Once upon a time, you either routed your horses or sprinted them. Now, in CALI, they go from a single sprint to winning routes. Not only do they win but they outfinish horses that have been routing. Now, that's some serious training ****. Sadler, Mitchell, Baffert, Abrams, etc.; they do it all the time. When's the last time a sprinter was able to stretch and win on the turf after a single sprint? Doesn't happen in too many other venues (excepting the AQU INNER). Guess these horses aren't 'specialists' anymore and they mix up their distances with regularity. New age training. Righttttttttttttt. Same way Pletcher's horses consistently get those WIDE trips and just keep going in the lane.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I'm certainly not a Lukas fan but how exactly is this different from what Pletcher or any of the big name trainers are doing presently. They get the best stock, they have the best vets, they win the most races. Lukas was using steroids, his juicer 'students' are relying on other types of meds. Same old ****. Tell you this much: take away the meds in racing and half of these (presently very successful) idiots couldn't train a poodle. They're frauds. The difference is Lukas is transparent to just about everyone while you, and others, put his juicer students on pedestals.

I mean, you're apparently in the game. Check out what's happening with regularity out in Southern Cali. I've been playing the ponies for over 30 years. Once upon a time, you either routed your horses or sprinted them. Now, in CALI, they go from a single sprint to winning routes. Not only do they win but they outfinish horses that have been routing. Now, that's some serious training ****. Sadler, Mitchell, Baffert, Abrams, etc.; they do it all the time. When's the last time a sprinter was able to stretch and win on the turf after a single sprint? Doesn't happen in too many other venues (excepting the AQU INNER). Guess these horses aren't 'specialists' anymore and they mix up their distances with regularity. New age training. Righttttttttttttt. Same way Pletcher's horses consistently get those WIDE trips and just keep going in the lane.

I don't think there is any doubt that many of the top trainers have the best vets and they make full use of these vets. I agree with you there. But I still think that we can still usually separate the truly good trainers from the guys that would stop winning if all drugs were banned.

Let's pretend that all vets were banned from the track and there were cameras everywhere and there was no way to use any type of drug. I think that some trainers would still do well while others would drop off a cliff.

I think that Doug O'Neil would totally disappear. I think Mike Mitchell's win percentage would drop in half. I think that Vladimir Cerin's numbers would plummet.

[the_fat_man]

How are these guys training these horses to not only handle multiple distances AND be able to mix them up at will BUT to be able to stretch them out off of a single race and have them display router stamina. This was something that some of the all time greats couldn't do, at one time. I mean, great horses would return sprinting off layoffs and then (gradually) be stretched out. I can make sense of the cutback but the stretchout is tough to handle.

I watch S Cal racing and I'm hardpressed to figure out how these guys are training these horses. Clearly, in any other sport, your routers aren't able to beat sprinters sprinting and certainly your sprinters can't be routers over a distance -- and come from off the pace to do it, no less.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

How are these guys training these horses to not only handle multiple distances AND be able to mix them up at will BUT to be able to stretch them out off of a single race and have them display router stamina. This was something that some of the all time greats couldn't do, at one time. I mean, great horses would return sprinting off layoffs and then (gradually) be stretched out. I can make sense of the cutback but the stretchout is tough to handle.

I watch S Cal racing and I'm hardpressed to figure out how these guys are training these horses. Clearly, in any other sport, your routers aren't able to beat sprinters sprinting and certainly your sprinters can't be routers over a distance -- and come from off the pace to do it, no less.

If a horse wins sprinting first-time out, it is very tough to win next time out going long but it can be done. I think that in general the guys that are the most successful at this are the ones that give the horse at least 5 weeks (and preferably 6 weeks) between the debut win and the next race. The horses usually need some time to recover from the debut win and they need some long works (or 5 furlong works with long gallop-outs) to get ready for the route race.

I don't think much has changed with regards to this over the years. I first started going to the races back in 1980. Back then, if I saw a horse that won really impressively sprinting in his debut, the horse would usually get crushed if he was brought back routing 17 days later. I think that is still the same today.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by eajinabi

Yeah you are right. I rather put those horses in the hands of a juicer and then present it as an illusion of a healthy horse.

Clearly.