Discreet Cat earns 115 Beyer Speed Figure

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Another interesting theory to chew on is this:

I would bet that DC is worse off health wise right now than Afleet Alex ever was when they retired him.....not knocking those guys..just an example I chose to use....the Sheiks have the non-money-driven interest in our sport that will keep DC in the game well beyond any other owner would...that you can be sure of...

They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

Don't be so picky.

And Joel, please, stop reiterating that Pretty Discreet won the Alabama as though that gives Discreet Cat distance breeding. Do you remember that Alabama?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Don't be so picky.

And Joel, please, stop reiterating that Pretty Discreet won the Alabama as though that gives Discreet Cat distance breeding. Do you remember that Alabama?

Bottomline:

He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters, and I coud care less how she did it, she is a PRIVATE ACCOUNT....there are very few more stamina-laden influences in our game.....I believe Discreet Cat is the best horse in the world around one turn and that Bernardini is the best horse in the world around two turns - thus I think the further they go the more advantage Bernardini has over DC (1 1/4 miles), but I rerally believe DC is classy enough to still be second in the BC Classic - even if it isn't his best distance....

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

His power and physique. The way he takes charge of a race. The way that he annihilates his competition. His explosive turn of foot. His character on the track. The fact that he can rate or lead. The way that he moves, so fluid and even and powerful. Even his eye…. When I watch him, I know that I am seeing something special. It is the way that he wins, and the way that he looks while he is winning, not just his fast times or his margin of victory.

The mechanics of a champion racehorse are definitely there. At least, I see them, and so do many others.

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

His power and physique. The way he takes charge of a race. The way that he annihilates his competition. His explosive turn of foot. His character on the track. The fact that he can rate or lead. The way that he moves, so fluid and even and powerful. Even his eye�. When I watch him, I know that I am seeing something special. It is the way that he wins, and the way that he looks while he is winning, not just his fast times or his margin of victory.

The mechanics of a champion racehorse are definitely there. At least, I see them, and so do many others.

Sounds like the perfect man. Oh wait you're talking about a horse. Uhh nvmd.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Sounds like the perfect man. Oh wait you're talking about a horse. Uhh nvmd.

There is no such thing as a perfect man...

But there is such a thing as a perfect horse.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Bernadini has been annoited way too early. If you see something special in his ability to warrant this kind of assessment, tell us exactly what it is. He has yet to be pushed. Until a horse is pushed by COMPETETION, I withhold judgement unless I see something physically clear about his running mechanics that makes him superior.

LITF showed me some clear mechanical signs. So did Mineshaft. I can tell you exactly what I saw. Smarty Jones, I saw a great runner by the way he ran the Belmont, mechanically, the aforementioned were better to my eye than Smarty. What are Bernardini's mechanics that warrent the adulation, cause he has yet to be pushed?

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it...

I think that in the breeding shed Bernardini will impact the breed dramatically; this will be in the manner of his brilliant sire A.P. indy and his immortal grandsire Seattle Slew. This will be further resurrection of the Bold Ruler line.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it...

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

I loved Foggy's form... Deep Impact also runs low.

[bogeydaman]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

And......... after he wins the JCGG and the BCC by open lengths and not challenged (IMO) this will still not be answered. After all there was a post last week how weak the top 10 was for 3yr olds and up. I can hear the excuses now for why Bernadini wins the Classic so easily (Invasor ran but not recovered and / or not that good, everyone knows Lava Man can't run outside the West Coast, None of the Euro's took to the dirt, such and such had a horrible ride, did not take to the CD track, etc, etc, etc.). So, if and when Bernardini runs away from these next 2 fields, does he "get his due" as a great horse or a horse that is running against both a week 3 year old class (which I don't agree with) as well as 3+ class (after beating olders 2x)? Lets face it there is no Ghostzappers, St. Liams, etc out there this year.

Originally Posted by pgardn

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

A) The head stayed low is a trait of most A.P. Indys...the good and the bad ones....A.P. Indy himself was what we call a "rooter", or a horse that carries his head extremely low when in full stride....MANY A.P. Indys do this, even the bad ones...trust me on this...

B) Mineshaft was not as precocious as Bernardini and he just wasn't as good as him either...period...I'm sorry for those who disagree but I'm supremely confident we'll all see this to be true by the time Bernardini retires....i know them both VERY well, especially Mineshaft through Robby Albarado and Neil Howard and my days at Fair Grounds....trust me...I've put my hands on the horse many times...Bernardini is in another league...he just is...

C) Mineshaft's pedigree was comparable to Bernardini's but that is all IMO...he is not near the physical specimen, nor near the athlete...sorry, Bernardini is just more superior in several categories that it would take me longer to explain than its worth typing...

D) Also, Mieshaft has been a disappointment at sire as far as how his babies look in relation to the book of mares he got...Vindication and Empire Maker - fellow first crop sires - blew him out of the water in the sales arena....Bernardini has the chance to be a better stallion than his sire IMO...

E) LITF had one of the best bio-meshanics systems as long as that could be sophisticatedly measured....it was scientifically proven that LITF had hardly any wasted motion...all of his energy was positively moving forward and in an efficient, momentum and ryhtmicly generated motion.....he had very little wasted motion....Bernardini's stride is just as good or better IMO because he is so athletic that his feet don't appear to remain on the ground as much as LITF...An example of horrible action and severe wasted motion is Discreet Cat - but look how good he is with all of that extra, wasted motion...BTW, Mineshaft didn't move half as nicely as Bernardini does...

F) Bernardini has handled everything to this point with the upmost class and with immense ability....What makes you think he doesn't have the class to dig in and be a competitor when challenged? I would bet anything that he has the heart of Tiznow...he is a consumate pro in too many areas for me to believe otherwise....Plus, why fault the horse because he hasn't been challenged in the stretch yet? That just goes to show you how much better he is than the other horses...Any horse that can win a Classic race by open lengths as easy as he did IN JUST HIS 4th LIFETIME START is nothing short of special....He has won 4 straight graded stakes and 2 Grade 1s - ALL BY OPENS LENGTHS AND WITH IMMENSE EASE....Is that his fault? What more do you want him to do? Would you like him to slow down and let them catch him in mid-stretch before he starts to try?...comon man...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Bottomline:

He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters, and I coud care less how she did it, she is a PRIVATE ACCOUNT....there are very few more stamina-laden influences in our game.....I believe Discreet Cat is the best horse in the world around one turn and that Bernardini is the best horse in the world around two turns - thus I think the further they go the more advantage Bernardini has over DC (1 1/4 miles), but I rerally believe DC is classy enough to still be second in the BC Classic - even if it isn't his best distance....

Really...." He CRUISED in the 1 1/8-mile UAE Derby over some pretty heavy hitters "...you must be once again referring to that heavy hitter Testimony who other than a couple inexplicable performances in, according to you, drug-free Dubai couldn't be competitive with 35 claimers in the US...or perhaps you haven't noticed his two recent performances....if you can even call them that. Give me a break. If you are going to in any way insist that the real Invasor showed up that day, and for that matter any of the other supposed good horses ( including the one who's trainer claims his horse was doped ), then I suggest you get medical attention.

I'm not saying he doesn't necessarily have some distance in his pedigree, but to say about Pretty Discreet's Alabama victory, which YOU have cited more than once to argue Discreet Cat's distance pedigree, " you could care less how she did it " is ridiculous and, frankly, beneath you. Or, I suppose, you think Conquistador Cielo's wire to wire romp in the mud in the Belmont Stakes solidified him as a true mile and a half horse.

Ya know, even Godolphin has expressed serious concerns about his distance limitations....and I KNOW you care what they think.

The only thing that was good about that Alabama win was that it caused a monster carryover at the Spa. Other than that I'd have to say it may have been the worst edition in history.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

They sure have killed horses at a higher rate than most owners. Oh snap!!

Nah, I don't think so...per proportion of how involved they are, they usually do VERY well by the horses they have in looking out for their helath and best interest...Electrocutionist had a heart attack and for anybody who understands horse health knows that it is totally genetic and a defection he was born with...that would have been uncontollable the greatest horseman in the world....Dubai Millanium and Tempera both died from non-racing related stuff....I can't think of any of their horses that have died on the track in recent memory...they do a great job doing whats in the horse's best helath interest these days and I really think that is a primary reason that they are enjoying the high level of success they are now....just my opinion..

A prime example is Discreet Cat.....if MOST American trainers had him (I won't mention names), DC would have been thrust into the Derby...Hell, the Shieks would have probably dne that too a few years ago...But now they are more disciplined because they have learned that if you do right by the horse that things will usually play out the best way for you in the long run....

You cannot acuse them of being bad horsemen...thats for sure...they have not always done the smartest things considering the capital they invest (Coolmore out-managed them for YAESR with less oney invested) but they are getting better and smarter now...

Part of the reason they also didn't have the level of success that other big owners had for a long time was because they didn't cheat....I commend their honesty and it is paying dividends now...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Part of the reason they also didn't have the level of success that other big owners had for a long time was because they didn't cheat....I commend their honesty and it is paying dividends now...

Not accusing them of anything but I have no idea how you can insist they are necessarily any more innocent than everyobody else ( other than your unnatural affection for them ).

When you figure out how Testimony finished six lengths behind Discreet Cat, and two lengths in front of Invasor, let me know.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Not accusing them of anything but I have no idea how you can insist they are necessarily any more innocent than everyobody else ( other than your unnatural affection for them ).

When you figure out how Testimony finished six lengths behind Discreet Cat, and two lengths in front of Invasor, let me know.

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...

Don't f'n lecture me and talk down to me....especially with that kind of crap.

:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Don't f'n lecture me and talk down to me....especially with that kind of crap.

What

here we go with people taking things persinally again....the funny thing is that i just noticed you telling m,e I needed 'medical attention' in a post earlier in the thread...

This is when i retire from a thread...when the ridiculousness begins...Thanks for the conversation guys....see you in another thread down the road....

This is very dispaoointing it always results to more than a debate