David Junior

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I wouldnt mind having a sore animal like Discrete Cat as a knock around horse.

No doubt that one of the things that separates decent horses from exceptional horses is their respective abilities to run through soreness. There have certainly been many top horses that have run through soreness. Banshee Breeze is a recent top horse that comes to mind. Everyone I know that understands these things ( not myself ) said she was as sore a working horse as they saw. But, on raceday, she put it all together.

No doubt on raceday Discreet Cat puts those issues behind him. I would say, however, that they have a lot to do with his light campaign. After seeing him today I hope we get to see a lot more of him. He may not have beaten much but that was a scary display. It's not as though Valid Notebook is a total bum. Four of his last five races have produced Beyer figures in the high 90s and Discreet Cat laughed at him like he was a 10 claimer. Anybody that doesn't think Discreet Cat is capable of monsterous performances is kidding themselves. The only question left, and it's a legitimate one, is how he will do when challenged by a relative equal. I say relative because it isn't entirely clear he has an equal.

[The Bid]

I think the only equal rival for him would be Bernardini, and I wouldnt be quick to say Bernardini is even his equal.

The good ones run through their problems, they all get sore. You know how they go, sometimes the feel good, sometimes they dont. However, the real special ones will go on and show up every race.

DC trounced a pretty decent field today, that field wasnt as weak as many think. He didnt break all that sharp, he pulled a little, and he still smoked them. He is a very special horse.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

No doubt that one of the things that separates decent horses from exceptional horses is their respective abilities to run through soreness. There have certainly been many top horses that have run through soreness. Banshee Breeze is a recent top horse that comes to mind. Everyone I know that understands these things ( not myself ) said she was as sore a working horse as they saw. But, on raceday, she put it all together.

No doubt on raceday Discreet Cat puts those issues behind him. I would say, however, that they have a lot to do with his light campaign. After seeing him today I hope we get to see a lot more of him. He may not have beaten much but that was a scary display. It's not as though Valid Notebook is a total bum. Four of his last five races have produced Beyer figures in the high 90s and Discreet Cat laughed at him like he was a 10 claimer. Anybody that doesn't think Discreet Cat is capable of monsterous performances is kidding themselves. The only question left, and it's a legitimate one, is how he will do when challenged by a relative equal. I say relative because it isn't entirely clear he has an equal.

I have a question for u. I've heard from u and others about Discreet Cat not being the soundest or physically correct horse in the world for a while now. Not saying that this is not the case but my question is how does anyone know how he would respond to a tougher schedule? I take Barbaro for instance. On another forum, I questioned before the Preakness whether his training/racing schedule was by design or by necessity? Matz always said that the horse needed more time between his races and that he performed best with a lot of spacing. But how did he know that? After his first race, he was given a break and they never actually tried racing him on a short turnaround. So there was no way they could know how he'd actually respond to a quick turnaround because he'd never had one. So my question then was did they give him the long breaks because he was coming out of his races showing that he needed it (physically spent or sore perhaps?) or were they giving him the breaks just because they THOUGHT it was what was best for him in the long run? If it was because he needed it, then that could have been a precursor to something bad happening when they ran back quick in the Preakness.

Is Discreet Cat's light campaign because of numerous physical setbacks and out of necessity to give him time to recover from his races? Do u think that the presence of Bernardini in the family has allowed them to take a much more conservative approach with him than they might have taken, or needed to take, if he was the only star in a one-star stable?

Hope this makes sense.

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm not a trainer and don't know anything about the physical care of racehorses so I could only make fairly uneducated guesses but I would say it is highly likely that his physical issues have a great deal to do with his relatively light schedule. I guess when you have those concerns, especially with a supremely talented horse, you would tend to err on the side of caution.

I also agree that having Bernardini in the barn makes it easier to pass a race like the Classic. When you likely already have the favorite it certainly lessens the temptation to " take a shot " with another horse, so to speak.

One thing I will say is that in my experience even good horses tend not to perform up to their potential when they are placed, or sometimes rushed, into major races that they were originally planning on passing.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm not a trainer and don't know anything about the physical care of racehorses so I could only make fairly uneducated guesses but I would say it is highly likely that his physical issues have a great deal to do with his relatively light schedule. I guess when you have those concerns, especially with a supremely talented horse, you would tend to err on the side of caution.

I also agree that having Bernardini in the barn makes it easier to pass a race like the Classic. When you likely already have the favorite it certainly lessens the temptation to " take a shot " with another horse, so to speak.

One thing I will say is that in my experience even good horses tend not to perform up to their potential when they are placed, or sometimes rushed, into major races that they were originally planning on passing.

I agree with that. However, in this case, I don't feel like passing the BC was in the plan. I think they have been conservative in their public announcements but I really feel like in the back of their minds (maybe in the front), the BC has been a real possibility.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I agree with that. However, in this case, I don't feel like passing the BC was in the plan. I think they have been conservative in their public announcements but I really feel like in the back of their minds (maybe in the front), the BC has been a real possibility.

I think it is very presumptuous of you to continue to make these claims. Godolphin is seemingly pretty clear about their plans and I don't think they have been planning some sort of sneak attack on the BC. You have to realize there are only two races for him BC day....the Sprint and the Classic. Turning him back to the Sprint doesn't feel like their kind of move, especially when they are seemingly heading to the World Cup, and they already have Bernardini primed for the Classic. No, I don't think it's impossible that they would run him in the Classic, but I also don't consider it likely, especially if Bernardini stays sound, and I certainly don't believe they have been lying about their intentions regarding Discreet Cat and that race.

As for your claims about the BC Mile....this honestly makes little to no sense. Horses basically go to the turf when dirt isn't really an option and a horse like Discreet Cat isn't making a brief excursion to the turf until he's proven he can't compete at the highest level on the dirt. Winning the BC Mile would NOT help Discreet Cat's breeding potential based on where he stands right now. He has to go out and prove himself on the dirt, in Grade 1 races, one way or the other before they would ever entertain thoughts of throwing him on the turf ( which they are realistically unlikely to ever do ). I hear all your " thinking outside the box " comments, and I understand where you're coming from, but I also don't think Godolphin would agree with you at all and nothing about their past suggests they do.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think it is very presumptuous of you to continue to make these claims. Godolphin is seemingly pretty clear about their plans and I don't think they have been planning some sort of sneak attack on the BC. You have to realize there are only two races for him BC day....the Sprint and the Classic. Turning him back to the Sprint doesn't feel like their kind of move, especially when they are seemingly heading to the World Cup, and they already have Bernardini primed for the Classic. No, I don't think it's impossible that they would run him in the Classic, but I also don't consider it likely, especially if Bernardini stays sound, and I certainly don't believe they have been lying about their intentions regarding Discreet Cat and that race.

As for your claims about the BC Mile....this honestly makes little to no sense. Horses basically go to the turf when dirt isn't really an option and a horse like Discreet Cat isn't making a brief excursion to the turf until he's proven he can't compete at the highest level on the dirt. Winning the BC Mile would NOT help Discreet Cat's breeding potential based on where he stands right now. He has to go out and prove himself on the dirt, in Grade 1 races, one way or the other before they would ever entertain thoughts of throwing him on the turf ( which they are realistically unlikely to ever do ). I hear all your " thinking outside the box " comments, and I understand where you're coming from, but I also don't think Godolphin would agree with you at all and nothing about their past suggests they do.

It's not very presumptive on my part. It's 100% presumptive. But it sure would be fun to see. I don't share your opinion about the logic in chosing the Mile though. I think this is a unique situation that they are in, where they could literally have the three best 3yo's in the world and win three races on the world's most prominent race card with them. Of the three, Discreet Cat seems to me to be the one that fits the distance and has the versatility to accomplish the Mile. I don't think it's an issue of breeding value. I know every decision that I say I would make it easy to say since I don't have to actually make them. But if it were up to me, I'd go for it. The doors that could be opened with a win, or even a top showing, in the Mile would leave me plenty of options for next year and could make things a lot of fun. I believe that if there is anyone in the position to be as daring as I would be and has the opportunity, it's Godolphin.

I think it would be insane to run Discreet Cat in the Sprint. There are way too many fast horses that can have a superb day. It is much more of a flukey race than the Classic or Mile. Look back and see how many times the favorite has won the Sprint. Fast horses come out of nowhere and win this race. The sprint is a very tough one to call and requires a special effort on that day.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It's not very presumptive on my part. It's 100% presumptive. But it sure would be fun to see. I don't share your opinion about the logic in chosing the Mile though. I think this is a unique situation that they are in, where they could literally have the three best 3yo's in the world and win three races on the world's most prominent race card with them. Of the three, Discreet Cat seems to me to be the one that fits the distance and has the versatility to accomplish the Mile. I don't think it's an issue of breeding value. I know every decision that I say I would make it easy to say since I don't have to actually make them. But if it were up to me, I'd go for it. The doors that could be opened with a win, or even a top showing, in the Mile would leave me plenty of options for next year and could make things a lot of fun. I believe that if there is anyone in the position to be as daring as I would be and has the opportunity, it's Godolphin.

I think that Bernardini would be more suited to the Mile before Discreet Cat would, although, the Mile isn't even an option for either horse. You would go for it, and the horse may not run worth a crap, or he might break down. There is a lot at stake... If the sheiks did what you wanted them to do, they would be begging for a disaster.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It's not very presumptive on my part. It's 100% presumptive. But it sure would be fun to see. I don't share your opinion about the logic in chosing the Mile though. I think this is a unique situation that they are in, where they could literally have the three best 3yo's in the world and win three races on the world's most prominent race card with them. Of the three, Discreet Cat seems to me to be the one that fits the distance and has the versatility to accomplish the Mile. I don't think it's an issue of breeding value. I know every decision that I say I would make it easy to say since I don't have to actually make them. But if it were up to me, I'd go for it. The doors that could be opened with a win, or even a top showing, in the Mile would leave me plenty of options for next year and could make things a lot of fun. I believe that if there is anyone in the position to be as daring as I would be and has the opportunity, it's Godolphin.

He's not running in a race because you or anyone thinks it would be " fun ". Believe me, this is very serious business, and there is zero chance Discreet Cat is going to end up in the BC Mile....unless they decide, in the spirit of MY Discreet Cat thread ( which you guys ruined with your frivolous seriousness...talk about presumptuous ), to switch it to the dirt just for Godolphin.

But, hey, anything's possible, the Dead did eventually break up Scarlet/Fire. It just took a VERY long time.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I have a question for u. I've heard from u and others about Discreet Cat not being the soundest or physically correct horse in the world for a while now. Not saying that this is not the case but my question is how does anyone know how he would respond to a tougher schedule? I take Barbaro for instance. On another forum, I questioned before the Preakness whether his training/racing schedule was by design or by necessity? Matz always said that the horse needed more time between his races and that he performed best with a lot of spacing. But how did he know that? After his first race, he was given a break and they never actually tried racing him on a short turnaround. So there was no way they could know how he'd actually respond to a quick turnaround because he'd never had one. So my question then was did they give him the long breaks because he was coming out of his races showing that he needed it (physically spent or sore perhaps?) or were they giving him the breaks just because they THOUGHT it was what was best for him in the long run? If it was because he needed it, then that could have been a precursor to something bad happening when they ran back quick in the Preakness.

Is Discreet Cat's light campaign because of numerous physical setbacks and out of necessity to give him time to recover from his races? Do u think that the presence of Bernardini in the family has allowed them to take a much more conservative approach with him than they might have taken, or needed to take, if he was the only star in a one-star stable?

Hope this makes sense.

Is Discreet Cat's light campaign because of numerous physical setbacks and out of necessity to give him time to recover from his races?

Yes.

Do u think that the presence of Bernardini in the family has allowed them to take a much more conservative approach with him than they might have taken, or needed to take, if he was the only star in a one-star stable?

No, this horse has some really smart connections that don't push their horses and do right by their horses.

Not saying that this is not the case but my question is how does anyone know how he would respond to a tougher schedule?

We don't know, and we won't ever know if DC can handle a tough campaign. The connections won't push him and they don't have to. I expect DC is going to need a similar campaign to GZ. When he runs, I can see that his galloping style would make him prone to soundness issues. To me, he runs like an unsound horse. He really hits the ground hard with his front end, but he is as fast as they come, which enhances his problems.

But how did he know that? So my question then was did they give him the long breaks because he was coming out of his races showing that he needed it (physically spent or sore perhaps?) or were they giving him the breaks just because they THOUGHT it was what was best for him in the long run?

The reason that connections know how much a horse can take is mostly a guess, but there are indicators. For instance, I think that Barbaro lost weight after a race. Barbaro could also have come out of races puffy or it may have taken him longer to recover from a race. He also may have had some underlying soundness issues.

These are all of my opinions and I hope it helps. There are probably some others on this board that are a little more qualified and knowledgeable in this subject area than I am though...