Lawyer Ron Goes to Pletcher..

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No need to get so defensive. I understand your point and I understand that its a business, I understand that he made a lot of money with the horse, I understand that Pletcher is the leading trainer in the country.
The fact that the guy has bought questionable stallion prospect for way more than market value actually makes no difference. The whole point that I am trying to bring up is that when the same few barns get all the good babies and take the established stars too, it makes for an unhealthy sport.

Ok Cannon Shell tell you what.
You meet me back here after he runs a few times for Todd and lets see if hes still rank.
People can make all the comments and innuendo they want about Todd having some secret edge, and moving up horses. But do you wanna make a little bet that the horse isn't rank next time?
Todd is a fine horseman(as are many other trainers, hes not the only one) and I think its a disgrace that the trainer/jockey combo couldnt get this horse to settle after having had all this time to try and correct it.
Its not just "some little thing", his rankness can be the difference between 1st place and 2nd or 3rd or off the board in a lotta future races. How much do you take before you make a move to try and find a guy who can get him to relax.
You're acting like this is a shock. hes had MONTHS to try and get him to settle, he can't do it. Time to find someone who can or might.
Ok, I'm a bad guy then, I agree with the owner 100% and would do the same thing.

[Gander]

Mandella is the kind of guy a lot of people like to root for. Not saying Todd isnt a great human being, he probably is. But hes kind of like the Yankees of horse racing. People just are plain tired of him. Mandella is kind of like the Cubs or Caridnals. Hard to have any ill feelings against.

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by Gander

Mandella is the kind of guy a lot of people like to root for. Not saying Todd isnt a great human being, he probably is. But hes kind of like the Yankees of horse racing. People just are plain tired of him. Mandella is kind of like the Cubs or Caridnals. Hard to have any ill feelings against.

What a great way to describe it and you are dead on.

Originally Posted by Gander

Mandella is the kind of guy a lot of people like to root for. Not saying Todd isnt a great human being, he probably is. But hes kind of like the Yankees of horse racing. People just are plain tired of him. Mandella is kind of like the Cubs or Caridnals. Hard to have any ill feelings against.

I'm a little surprised he wasn't considered, maybe he was.
The Strub Series that kicks off with the Malibu would make a hell of a lot of sense to me. And Mandella is out there. Dutrow has done great work as well and would have made a fine choice. Nick Zito always does great work, he woulda been a great choice as well, especially to get him to rate with his crack exercise riders Carlos and Maxine Correa. A lotta guys mighta been considered. I realize what you are saying about Todd, I really do.
I know its very bad to have an imbalance, BELIEVE me it affects a lotta people in this game from the bottom to the top very badly. I'm not arguing that. Hes like Microsoft, the product is great, but competitors have no chance.

What handicap horses has he turned into champions? I can only think of Left Bank. I think he follows Bluegrass Cat and Flower Alley to stud.

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

What handicap horses has he turned into champions? I can only think of Left Bank. I think he follows Bluegrass Cat and Flower Alley to stud.

Oh please, Left bank doesn't count? He was indeed a champion.
Heres a question for all of you, how many ACTIVE trainers in the USA have trained a handicap champion?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ok Cannon Shell tell you what.
You meet me back here after he runs a few times for Todd and lets see if hes still rank.
People can make all the comments and innuendo they want about Todd having some secret edge, and moving up horses. But do you wanna make a little bet that the horse isn't rank next time?
Todd is a fine horseman(as are many other trainers, hes not the only one) and I think its a disgrace that the trainer/jockey combo couldnt get this horse to settle after having had all this time to try and correct it.
Its not just "some little thing", his rankness can be the difference between 1st place and 2nd or 3rd or off the board in a lotta future races. How much do you take before you make a move to try and find a guy who can get him to relax.
You're acting like this is a shock. hes had MONTHS to try and get him to settle, he can't do it. Time to find someone who can or might.
Ok, I'm a bad guy then, I agree with the owner 100% and would do the same thing.

I not sure why you went off on a tangent but I don't particularly care if he's rank or not. I don't care about this horse and I dont care about the owner and I dont care about his stallion business. But I do care about horse racing, the sport and business. And that being so, I see many more problems being created by those that strictly see it as a "business". The concentration of power into single shedrows is a very troubling sign.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I not sure why you went off on a tangent but I don't particularly care if he's rank or not. I don't care about this horse and I dont care about the owner and I dont care about his stallion business. But I do care about horse racing, the sport and business. And that being so, I see many more problems being created by those that strictly see it as a "business". The concentration of power into single shedrows is a very troubling sign.

Cannon Shell, you and I have rarely if ever before disagreed, and we really don't disagree now. I agree with everything you said about concentration of power.
But I didn't go off on a "tangent". I believe that I am more in line with the real story here, a guy who isnt happy about his horses performance.
You don't think him still being rank matters? Come on cannon. he just blew the winners share of his last race for being rank, again. Please go back and watch the replay of the Super Derby ok Cannon? You will see what I am talking about. I don't think the move was "a move to Pletcher", it was a "move from Holthus". It may be semantics, ok, but do you see what I am saying about that part of the equation?

[Linny]

If you're a Holthus fan you resent him being taken from Bob. For others it a matter of Todd getting yet another made stakes winner. Having so many horses concentrated in one operation can be construed as negative. Todd already "owns" the older mare division on the east coast. The two G1 races for mares at SAR this summer saw a total of 10 horses go to post. Only ONE horse ran in both, though they were 5 weeks apart. Todd won both I think with horses that had been started with other trainers. He won 5 of the 6 2yo stakes at the Spa. Smaller outfits simply cannot compete so they ship to Delaware or jersey and get beat by his "B Team." It's frustrating.
When other trainers know that one guy has so many guns, they simply duck G1 races and ship out. That's why we can't get full fields in many NY G1's.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by merasmag

MONTHS? i may not've been posting but i've been keeping the tabs i could-please define MONTHS...because to the best of my knowledge, the horse was injured from about 5/6 to 8/something

months as in lawyer ron was rank in the ark derby and he was rank last week.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by merasmag

won the arkansas derby

i'm aware of that....but he lost the super derby, which cost holthus the horse. we all know this is a what have you done for me lately business. april was a long time ago, and ark doesn't get much respect as far as drawing breeders. you can bet your ass that alex and smarty wouldn't be drawing anywhere near as much attention had they not gone on to further success after oaklawn.