Bigger collapse?- Oracle/Gales/Anybody!

Originally Posted by Gander

I knew you couldnt just answer the question without somehow reverting back to the Red Sox blowing it this year. The difference is even if they had gone
2-3 or 3-2 in that series, who knows how long that would have kept them in it. Lets be real, the Yankees pulverized the Red Sox in those first 3 games then all they had to do is win 1 game in 4 chances, 2 being at home, and still could not get it done. I think 99% of all sports fans would agree with me that what transpired in the 2004 playoffs was way more of a choke then what the very mediocre Red Sox of 2006 did. Please.

I don't think all come from behinds are collapses Tim, thats where you and I differ.
I read all about "michigan St's collapse" this past weekend, and I read about the "eagles collapse" against the Giants. I didn't get those either. I watched both games, and I simply saw two teams who absolutely did everything right and badly outplayed their opponents in the last 1/4's. Same with the Buffalo-Houston playoff game where the Bills were losing like 35-3 at halftime. I mean Holy ****!! In the second half the Bills played every down on offense and defense perfectly!!!!! I'm sorry but that wasn't a Houston collapse, that was one team just kicking the **** out of the other one. Big difference to me.

Its an overused term, and a badly overused one at that. Greg Norman collapsed at the Masters, yes thats true. But thats a single man sport where the guy playing is not affected by how the other guy is, his fate is in his own hands.
The collapse the Sox put on AFTER losing to the Yanks is what I am referring to. They played the Yanks hard in that 5 game series, they narrowly lost 3 games to them and it easily could have been a difrefent story. Its how they pouted and played after that. And please, spare me the rationalizations of how mediocre the Sox were. LOL!! You must be kidding!! You explicity said that the Yanks would not even make the playoffs as late as August, I remember the post!!!!! So you thought the Sox were great then, but now that they are going home, they are mediocre. I'd say thats Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.
The Cardinals haven't written the last chapter yet. If they do blow it, perhaps it will be a famous collapse.

[Gander]

The difference is if I were asked by you or by anybody on here what was a greater collapse, the Red Sox blowing the 1986 World Series against the Mets or a possible St. Louis 2006 collapse (very close to happening) I would answer the question without reverting back to a collapse from the favorite team of the person asking the question. And please, I never said the Red Sox were anything close to great this year, but I did thought they would make the playoffs and the Yankees would miss them. But in no way does that imply that I think the Red Sox were anything better than mediocre. In my opinion, the Padres are mediocre, yet they are in the playoffs.

[gales0678]

i would say it would be the cards IF they don't make it to the playoffs

That type of lead

The '04 Yanks and '78 Red Sox give each team's followers nightmares

but

if the cards blow this:

I personally think they will

Does anybody trust Jeff Weaver and the Cardinal bullpen tonight?
I think the lose 4 in a row to Milwaukee

Originally Posted by gales0678

i would say it would be the cards IF they don't make it to the playoffs

That type of lead

The '04 Yanks and '78 Red Sox give each team's followers nightmares

but

if the cards blow this:

I personally think they will

Does anybody trust Jeff Weaver and the Cardinal bullpen tonight?
I think the lose 4 in a row to Milwaukee

78 Sox didnt collapse as bad as you think. Yanks played like 700 ball the last few months. Thats not a collapse in my opinion. And they fought back to force a playoff.

[Gander]

And it wasnt a 9.5 game lead collapse in 12 days either. Far from it.
WHat the Cardinals may do may go down as one of the all time season ending choke jobs. But lets give a lot of credit to the Astros who are playing out of their minds right now. They could have very easily folded their tent and started packing for golf.

Gales that seaon of the 78 Sox is chronicled in a GREAT book called the Bronx Zoo by Yankee picther Sparky Lyle who just happened to be asked to chronicle that particular season before it began.
The Yankees played incredible baseball the second half, they had winning streaks like you wouldnt believe. The Sox didn't collapse as bad as legend would have it. The Yanks took the lead in September but the Sox fought back late to force a playoff. I just don't label that a collapse.
YOu ever see the classic Bills-Oliers game with the great comeback?
****, that had to be the best half of football anyone ever played in history. An allstar team wasn't gonna stop the bills in that one. They completed like every pass and gave up nothing on defense.
I guess I just have a different idea of what a collapse is. To me a collapse is when one team just does everything wrong, and teh other does nothing special. This "cardinal" collapse couldn't have happened without Houston going on insane run of baseball. You see what I mean? If the cards had played .200 ball while the Stros played .500 ball, well thats a collapse. But the Stros have been insane, when the hell was the last time they lost two in a row? August?

[Gander]

Back to the Norman collapse in the Masters, you really have to give lots of credit to Faldo as well. I think he ended up winning that by 3 or 4 strokes shooting a pretty ridiculously low round. Cant rememebr the number off the top of my head I think it was like a 66 or 67. Norman shot like a 74 or 75?

Originally Posted by Gander

Back to the Norman collapse in the Masters, you really have to give lots of credit to Faldo as well. I think he ended up winning that by 3 or 4 strokes shooting a pretty ridiculously low round. Cant rememebr the number off the top of my head I think it was like a 66 or 67. Norman shot like a 74 or 75?

Yeah Tim thats correct. Im not sure on the figs exactly, but Faldo shot great.
Norman was hitting the ball into ponds and things though which made it easier for Faldo to play the way that he did. he didnthave to go for broke on each hole as he would have if Norman had even played 2 over the first nine holes. Norman just lost it out there.

[SniperSB23]

The other big difference is that most people felt the winner of the Yankees-Sox series was going on to win the World Series. I don't think many people think the Cards will go on to win the World Series whether they collapse now or not. So what is really the difference if they hold on to win the division and then get swept first round of the playoffs? Does that make it less a choke?

[quote=oracle80]I don't think all come from behinds are collapses Tim, thats where you and I differ.
I read all about "michigan St's collapse" this past weekend, and I read about the "eagles collapse" against the Giants. I didn't get those either. I watched both games, and I simply saw two teams who absolutely did everything right and badly outplayed their opponents in the last 1/4's. Same with the Buffalo-Houston playoff game where the Bills were losing like 35-3 at halftime. I mean Holy ****!! In the second half the Bills played every down on offense and defense perfectly!!!!! I'm sorry but that wasn't a Houston collapse, that was one team just kicking the **** out of the other one. Big difference to me.


I remember that Buffalo-Houston game well.. Jeff Fisher's run and shoot offense couldn't keep Buddy Ryan's defense off the field. Finally came to a head, with Buddy throwing a punch at Fisher..wasn't Buddy's first, or last punch.. It wasn't so much of a collapse, as it being an offense that wasn't geared to set on a lead.

Whether Frank Reich started the game..and came in for Kelly is a little fuzzy.

Ez

[quote=ezrabrooks]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't think all come from behinds are collapses Tim, thats where you and I differ.
I read all about "michigan St's collapse" this past weekend, and I read about the "eagles collapse" against the Giants. I didn't get those either. I watched both games, and I simply saw two teams who absolutely did everything right and badly outplayed their opponents in the last 1/4's. Same with the Buffalo-Houston playoff game where the Bills were losing like 35-3 at halftime. I mean Holy ****!! In the second half the Bills played every down on offense and defense perfectly!!!!! I'm sorry but that wasn't a Houston collapse, that was one team just kicking the **** out of the other one. Big difference to me.


I remember that Buffalo-Houston game well.. Jeff Fisher's run and shoot offense couldn't keep Buddy Ryan's defense off the field. Finally came to a head, with Buddy throwing a punch at Fisher..wasn't Buddy's first, or last punch.. It wasn't so much of a collapse, as it being an offense that wasn't geared to set on a lead.

Whether Frank Reich started the game..and came in for Kelly is a little fuzzy.

Ez

Ezra it was reich who came in.
I will never forget watching the 2nd half. It was pretty obvious after the 2nd Buffalo touchdown when the crowd went insane how it was gonna end.
My friend said after the third touchdown that place was actually shaking from the noise and complete insanity. You could just see Buffalo had made some adjustments at halftime and came out not defeated, but like a team on a mission. Reich just kept throwing it and they just kept catching it. And the defense lead by Bruce Smith just swarmed on them on every play.
I was just trying to say that not all teams who blow leads in games or series collapse, sometimes the other team just kicks it into turbodrive and outplays them.

[ninetoone]

Just to clarify, Reich didn't "come in" in that comeback game. He started and played the whole game. Kelly had hurt his knee in the last regular season game (against Houston), and didn't play in the famous rematch.

[Gander]

Even die hard Yankee fans admit that was if not the biggest choke, top 3 easily. No excuse for it.

Every Yankee fan I know but Oracle calls this one of the biggest chokes ever. Just think if it was a 5 game series, Yankees would have swept, right Mike? No way should the Yankees have somehow found a way to win 1 more game in the next 4. Thats a tough feat against a bum like Schilling whos tendon is coming out of his ankle.

Kev, thanks for the stats, I had gone back and posted the scores in one of the posts right before yours.

Originally Posted by Gander

Even die hard Yankee fans admit that was if not the biggest choke, top 3 easily. No excuse for it.

Every Yankee fan I know but Oracle calls this one of the biggest chokes ever. Just think if it was a 5 game series, Yankees would have swept, right Mike? No way should the Yankees have somehow found a way to win 1 more game in the next 4. Thats a tough feat against a bum like Schilling whos tendon is coming out of his ankle.

Kev, thanks for the stats, I had gone back and posted the scores in one of the posts right before yours.

I just never saw it as a choke. Show me the game they choked in?
Red Sox simply had a better team that year, I've always felt that.

[Gander]

Mike- I remember you busting my chops on the ESPN board after the Yankees went up 2-0 and then even more after 3-0. You cant tell me you thought the Red Sox had any chance to win the series after they lost those first 3 games. I certainly didnt and I am a huge fan. I thought both teams were very equal that year. If you did believe the Sox would come back and win 4 straight I think you could have made a nice score in any sports book. I mean the kind of score that helps buy a house.

Tim,
The best score anyone ever made, and the truest definition of collapse, was the A's losing 4 straight to the Reds.
I read an article on that series, this is a fact, gamblers anonymous saw participation in their meetings increase over 30% after that series was over.
Guys bet the A's in the first game, and just kept doubling down. Anyone who took the Reds in a sweep made a fortune. I dunno about winning a house, but I do know that according to GA many people actually lost their homes on that series.
A friend of mine who owned a restaurant in Burlington was one of the double down guys who got killed. Guy had to take out a second mortgage to pay up.