If you're not a horse then maybe you're a rabbit

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I guess considering the Coolmore-Godolphin situation it is hardly surprising Coolmore is thinking of a rabbit in this race.

Perhaps after last year's Woodward debacle the NY stewards might want to read the European rules regarding rabbits.

Believe the debacle with the rabbit was in last year's JCGC, no? Flower Alley pressed his own rabbit pretty much throughout.

[blackthroatedwind]

No it was the disgraceful exhibition put on by Dutrow in the Woodward, using two rabbits who were separate betting interests from Saint Liam, and intentially trying to impede Commentator. But, I guess some people will do anything to win.

On the other hand, he didn't break any rules...it's just that the rules themselves are broken.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

No it was the disgraceful exhibition put on by Dutrow in the Woodward, using two rabbits who were separate betting interests from Saint Liam, and intentially trying to impede Commentator. But, I guess some people will do anything to win.

On the other hand, he didn't break any rules...it's just that the rules themselves are broken.

I agree, I don't fault Dutrow one bit for what he did in that race, pretty smart if you ask me. I would do the same damn thing...

Originally Posted by Scav

I agree, I don't fault Dutrow one bit for what he did in that race, pretty smart if you ask me. I would do the same damn thing...

Don't you get it yet Scav?
There is a sector out there that feels if a guy wears suits every day and speaks with great respect and dignity to the press that he is a "fine horseman" and is above the notion of anything wrong.
But if you don't follow those rules, and aren't real good at tossing trainerspeak bull**** at the media, and sucking up to them, then you aren't a horseman. You are just a lucky guy who is cheating.
Thats how it works out there.
I'd love to show you the list of guys I think have cheated in the last ten years, and all of them have suits on and speak trainerspeak very well. How do you think they avoided getting accused by the media?
If you don't do that, you are basically annointed as the Devil walking on earth.

[ateamstupid]

I'd love to say this doesn't bother me as a Bernardini fan, but I'd be lying, because I didn't like how anxious he was for the first quarter-mile or so of The Travers.

With that said, it could've just been a reaction to High Cotton and Bluegrass Cat pinballing him in the first 100 yards.

I still think Mr. Deen rolls by open lengths, just because he's the best dirt horse in the world and he's rated successfully before, but this worries me a tad.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Don't you get it yet Scav?
There is a sector out there that feels if a guy wears suits every day and speaks with great respect and dignity to the press that he is a "fine horseman" and is above the notion of anything wrong.
But if you don't follow those rules, and aren't real good at tossing trainerspeak bull**** at the media, and sucking up to them, then you aren't a horseman. You are just a lucky guy who is cheating.
Thats how it works out there.
I'd love to show you the list of guys I think have cheated in the last ten years, and all of them have suits on and speak trainerspeak very well. How do you think they avoided getting accused by the media?
If you don't do that, you are basically annointed as the Devil walking on earth.

I get it, when I pick a trainer, I want my guy to be wearing boats, have some dirt on his chin and hate suits, he better like to party too because I will be like the guy that owned Major Rhythm, half of Arlington drank for free when he won the Stars and Stripes

I guess I'm in the camp that thinks its smart to run a rabbit in the JCGC. Coolmore has a horse with a closing kick, and they are willing to pay the nomination and starting fees to insure one.
Where exactly is the rule that is written that says need the lead/speed types should never face any adversity in their races?
Bull****. The reason many of them reel off winning streaks is that noone wants to bang heads with them early, because they are all afraid they will stop and get no purse money. They all just suck along and try to get place and show money and the speed horse rolls.
Wanna know what a DISGRACE IS???? A disgrace was the Dubai Escapade race up here where several other horses like Stormy Kiss had early speed and all of em grabbed like sumo wrestlers so as to avoid a duel, and just sucked along while Dubai bounded free and clear in moderate fractions that others in the field had regularly set or attended.
BULL**** to the notion that a rabbit is not fair to anyone. Give me a break please. If Dr fager could suffer the "indignity" of a rabbit, than anyone else who ever sets foot on a track can.
I love the whole notion that because either Dutrow or Coolmore does it then it is wrong, but if you do it to Dr Fager its ok.
I for one, am tired of witnessing grade one races where jockeys are given orders to grab and not contest the favorite so as not to "burn up" the mount and allow the favorite to just roll away unmolested.
Holy Bull had a rabbit thrown at him in the Travers and proved his greatness by winning anyway.
Smarty Jones got absolutely tortured by Bailey and Solis in the Belmont.
At what point did Commentator and Bernadini become exempt from what Holy Bull, Dr. fager, and Smarty Jones were forced to endure.
If Bernadini is indeed a superhorse, then some adversity should not be a problem.
You'll never see me crying because a 2-5 shot never gets contested during a race and is allowed to walk to the half mile pole.

[blackthroatedwind]

I don't see anyone disputing the value or fairness of rabbits. Certainly they are used constantly in European races and, as you mentioned, they have been used in the US at different times.

The problem in the Woodward was twofold. First of all the rabbits were neither owned by the same people that they were helping and they were a seperate betting interest than that horse. It is one thing to look to help yourself and another for different owners to effectively gang up on another horse in a given race. Once again, this was not Dutrow's fault, it was the fault of the track and the powers that be for allowing this situation to occur. If nothing else, the owners of Saint Liam should have bought at least a partial interest in both rabbits prior to the race. The second situation was, IMO, Dutrow's fault, and that was the manner in which the rabbits were ridden. It is one thing to ensure an honest pace, or even duel a speed horse into submission if that one is unable to rate, but an entirely different thing to look to physically intimidate another competitor. Any unbiased view of the head-on shot down the backstretch would have trouble defending the notion that the two rabbits were ONLY trying to ensure a fast or honest pace that day.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't see anyone disputing the value or fairness of rabbits. Certainly they are used constantly in European races and, as you mentioned, they have been used in the US at different times.

The problem in the Woodward was twofold. First of all the rabbits were neither owned by the same people that they were helping and they were a seperate betting interest than that horse. It is one thing to look to help yourself and another for different owners to effectively gang up on another horse in a given race. Once again, this was not Dutrow's fault, it was the fault of the track and the powers that be for allowing this situation to occur. If nothing else, the owners of Saint Liam should have bought at least a partial interest in both rabbits prior to the race. The second situation was, IMO, Dutrow's fault, and that was the manner in which the rabbits were ridden. It is one thing to ensure an honest pace, or even duel a speed horse into submission if that one is unable to rate, but an entirely different thing to look to physically intimidate another competitor. Any unbiased view of the head-on shot down the backstretch would have trouble defending the notion that the two rabbits were ONLY trying to ensure a fast or honest pace that day.

I happen to agree with you on this BTW. It's the rules that are unfair.
The problem is how to tell a guy he cant run a horse in a race.
They will point to Seek Gold at 99-1 as an example that anything can happen.
I wish the stewards in the US had the authority and power like those overseas to suspend and question trainers and jocks who give race altering rides. I mean, in theory they do, but they never do it.
I'd love to have stewards asking all these jocks and trainers in grade one races why their horses have great speed until the grade one comes along(especially with fillies who are so much more valuable when getting a grade one placing) and they grab.
I don't think Dutrow was real happy or proud of what occurred that day.
I know for a fact he was furious that Prado got yanked, and it was not his call. Thats why after Silver Train ran the BC sprint and won he said on Tv that he was standing next to the greatest jockey alive. It was a not so subtle message. There are owners and racing managers involved with some of these horses, and the trainer doesn't get the whole say.
I thought that what Bailey and Solis did to Smarty Jones was even worse. Two hall of fame jocks who know pace and the running style of their horses(espcially Bailey) sacrificed any chance their mounts had at winning the race, just to try and make sure another horse was defeated.
I'm quite sure if Bailey had to do that all over again, he would do it differently. It was a black eye on an other wise classy and spectacular career.
But as the rules stand, rabbits are used. And not everything is just a reflection of winning.
The Coolmore thing has gotten very ugly with the Sheikhs. By boycotting the sires and offspring of Coolmore, they have basically made breeders afraid to breed to Coolomores stallions because they know they won't hit a home run at the sales. That can potentially cost them hunderds of millions. So Coolmore wants to beat the Sheikh's stars.
Its spilled over into a complex situation that has effects on the track and off the track in so very many ways.
And none of it is pleasant.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I thought that what Bailey and Solis did to Smarty Jones was even worse. Two hall of fame jocks who know pace and the running style of their horses(espcially Bailey) sacrificed any chance their mounts had at winning the race, just to try and make sure another horse was defeated.
I'm quite sure if Bailey had to do that all over again, he would do it differently. It was a black eye on an other wise classy and spectacular career.

I couldn't agree more, in a race where most jocks try to win with their mount, they were trying for another jocks mount NOT to win...It is like bunting when a guy has a perfect game going in the bottom of the 8th inning with 2 outs and the other team is up 7 runs...BUSHLEAGUE

Originally Posted by Scav

I couldn't agree more, in a race where most jocks try to win with their mount, they were trying for another jocks mount NOT to win...It is like bunting when a guy has a perfect game going in the bottom of the 8th inning with 2 outs and the other team is up 7 runs...BUSHLEAGUE

I think had that race taken place in Europe, Bailey and Solis would have been sat down for the year by the stewards, and I'm not kidding.
A clearly blatant attempt to sacrifice any chance their mounts had to win just to try and make sure another horse lost.
Its probably the most incredible race I ever saw a horse run, no kidding.
He was basically under siege every step of the way by two horses who both went on to win grade one's. Their use of energy had them shooting backward in the field on the turn and they stopped to walks. Smarty kicked on and was passed near the wire, never stopped trying and even tried to come back on Birdstone, and was beaten a length.
I highly doubt that in my life I will ever see another 3 year old like Smarty. I'd say its just about impossible.
That race, much more than his Preakness, marked him as one of the best three year olds who ever stepped onto a race track.
Anyone who doesn't understand what he did that day should really take up shuffleboard or needlepoint as a hobby.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I thought that what Bailey and Solis did to Smarty Jones was even worse. Two hall of fame jocks who know pace and the running style of their horses(espcially Bailey) sacrificed any chance their mounts had at winning the race, just to try and make sure another horse was defeated.
I'm quite sure if Bailey had to do that all over again, he would do it differently. It was a black eye on an other wise classy and spectacular career.

I strongly disagree with this. I think if he could do it all over again, he would've done even more to Smarty so he wouldn't have had to sweat out that last 1/16th of a mile.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I strongly disagree with this. I think if he could do it all over again, he would've done even more to Smarty so he wouldn't have had to sweat out that last 1/16th of a mile.

LOL!!!
You and IndianCharlie would be great friends.
The Indian even devoted an entire negative sheet towards Bailey on the day up here this summer where they had Jerry Bailey day.
I'd like to think he wouldn't have Ateam, but I can't swear to it, lol.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I happen to agree with you on this BTW. It's the rules that are unfair.
The problem is how to tell a guy he cant run a horse in a race.
They will point to Seek Gold at 99-1 as an example that anything can happen.
I wish the stewards in the US had the authority and power like those overseas to suspend and question trainers and jocks who give race altering rides. I mean, in theory they do, but they never do it.
I'd love to have stewards asking all these jocks and trainers in grade one races why their horses have great speed until the grade one comes along(especially with fillies who are so much more valuable when getting a grade one placing) and they grab.
I don't think Dutrow was real happy or proud of what occurred that day.
I know for a fact he was furious that Prado got yanked, and it was not his call. Thats why after Silver Train ran the BC sprint and won he said on Tv that he was standing next to the greatest jockey alive. It was a not so subtle message. There are owners and racing managers involved with some of these horses, and the trainer doesn't get the whole say.
I thought that what Bailey and Solis did to Smarty Jones was even worse. Two hall of fame jocks who know pace and the running style of their horses(espcially Bailey) sacrificed any chance their mounts had at winning the race, just to try and make sure another horse was defeated.
I'm quite sure if Bailey had to do that all over again, he would do it differently. It was a black eye on an other wise classy and spectacular career.
But as the rules stand, rabbits are used. And not everything is just a reflection of winning.
The Coolmore thing has gotten very ugly with the Sheikhs. By boycotting the sires and offspring of Coolmore, they have basically made breeders afraid to breed to Coolomores stallions because they know they won't hit a home run at the sales. That can potentially cost them hunderds of millions. So Coolmore wants to beat the Sheikh's stars.
Its spilled over into a complex situation that has effects on the track and off the track in so very many ways.
And none of it is pleasant.

I have no problem with rabbits. You pays your money to nom/enter/run, you takes your chances.

I have no problem with trainers taking advantage of the playing field.

I am strongly against uncoupled entries at the trainer level.

I know why tracks do it but it is wrong.

Uncoupled entries in stakes races are the worst case. Too much at stake not to take full advantage. It's just wrong.

[tycharles01]

Should be fun to see how they run Bernardini tho, no doubt he rather be up front either leading or right up with the leader. Could finally see the armor come apart!!!Invasor on the other hand prolly would not mind being in mid pack with a big chance to close. This is a great idea just not enough to take out both of the big names

[Pointg5]

Too bad Sun King's not running, if they get going fast he might have rolled on past them...

Maybe, they can find a horse to be Bernardini's bodyguard, he could run right next to him and keep others from brushing him and then when he starts walking on water the escort would just let him go...Probably hard to find another horse that can breathe the same air as Bernardini though...

Sometimes these rabbits screw everything up, at least it will be an interesting race...

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Too bad Sun King's not running, if they get going fast he might have rolled on past them...

Maybe, they can find a horse to be Bernardini's bodyguard, he could run right next to him and keep others from brushing him and then when he starts walking on water the escort would just let him go...Probably hard to find another horse that can breathe the same air as Bernardini though...

Sometimes these rabbits screw everything up, at least it will be an interesting race...

LMFAO!

[Scav]

Spanish Chesnut is going to win the race by 10, please buy my tout sheet

I was just thinking the same thing, that Sun King may have had a hell of a shot in here had he been running. Shame that Nick won't get a chance to perhaps benefit from a rabbit after being hurt by one last year.
Wonder if its too late to change his mind.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Sometimes these rabbits screw everything up, at least it will be an interesting race...

As in last year's JCGC. Why Todd used a rabbit for a speed horse is beyond me. Chantal choked the rabbit and JV actually was ahead of her up the backstretch. Message to Todd, rabbits are used to make a fast pace for the closers, Flower Alley is a speed horse, a rabbit hurts him.