Another word on 'freshness'?

[Pedigree Ann]

The Cumberland Lodge S (G3-GB) was won today by Young Mick, his highest level win to date. He is a 4yo gelding who has made 18 starts this year, winning 10 and climbing the class ladder. Earlier in the year, on the All-Weather, he started on 20 January (9f, 9th), 23 January (9f, 1st), 26 January (10f, 1st), 1 February (10f, 2nd), and 6 February (9f, 2nd). Then he got a rest until 6 March (12f, 1st), another rest, then two wins on 25 March (12f, AW) and 29 March (11f, turf).

LIke US trainers of a decade or more back, trainers overseas know that fit horses are capable of running more than once a month or month and a half.

I only like fruits and vegetables 'fresh'!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

The Cumberland Lodge S (G3-GB) was won today by Young Mick, his highest level win to date. He is a 4yo gelding who has made 18 starts this year, winning 10 and climbing the class ladder. Earlier in the year, on the All-Weather, he started on 20 January (9f, 9th), 23 January (9f, 1st), 26 January (10f, 1st), 1 February (10f, 2nd), and 6 February (9f, 2nd). Then he got a rest until 6 March (12f, 1st), another rest, then two wins on 25 March (12f, AW) and 29 March (11f, turf).

LIke US trainers of a decade or more back, trainers overseas know that fit horses are capable of running more than once a month or month and a half.

Try finding races that you are eligible for three times in a week.

[DiscreetCat=Monster]

I like it when women get "fresh" w/ me

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

The Cumberland Lodge S (G3-GB) was won today by Young Mick, his highest level win to date. He is a 4yo gelding who has made 18 starts this year, winning 10 and climbing the class ladder. Earlier in the year, on the All-Weather, he started on 20 January (9f, 9th), 23 January (9f, 1st), 26 January (10f, 1st), 1 February (10f, 2nd), and 6 February (9f, 2nd). Then he got a rest until 6 March (12f, 1st), another rest, then two wins on 25 March (12f, AW) and 29 March (11f, turf).

LIke US trainers of a decade or more back, trainers overseas know that fit horses are capable of running more than once a month or month and a half.

Wow, interesting, Ann. Thanks for posting it.

--Dunbar

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Try finding races that you are eligible for three times in a week.

That is a problem. The British middle level races are limited handicaps, where horses can enter as long as their official, Jockey Club issued handicap mark falls within the limits. So when a horse is fit and in good form, the trainer will run him in whatever races they can find around the country (most tracks within a 3-hour van ride) before the next deadline for issuing new marks. No worry about losing it in a claimer, which can be the only option for a US horse who has run through its conditions.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

The Cumberland Lodge S (G3-GB) was won today by Young Mick, his highest level win to date. He is a 4yo gelding who has made 18 starts this year, winning 10 and climbing the class ladder. Earlier in the year, on the All-Weather, he started on 20 January (9f, 9th), 23 January (9f, 1st), 26 January (10f, 1st), 1 February (10f, 2nd), and 6 February (9f, 2nd). Then he got a rest until 6 March (12f, 1st), another rest, then two wins on 25 March (12f, AW) and 29 March (11f, turf).

LIke US trainers of a decade or more back, trainers overseas know that fit horses are capable of running more than once a month or month and a half.

Racing is completely different overseas. There are many possible reasons as to why they can run more often over there. In US races, horss are often times running hard the entire race. In Europe, they often times just gallop the entire race and only run their hardest the final quarter or 3/8 of a mile. They train the horses totally differenty over there. They give them these long gallops on soft grass. Here they train them on the hard dirt and they have to train them for speed since the fractions of our races are very fast.

From training on the dirt, horses in this country get all kinds of foot problems that are pretty much non-existant in Europe. To suggest that horses here could run more often since they run more often in Europe is absurd.

Guys like Frankel have been training for over 30 years. He's run thousand of horses on 3 weeks rest and he's run thousands of horses on 4-5 weeks rest. So have all the other trainers. They have seen that horses run much better and stay sounder if you give them more time between races. This is no great mystery. I don't get why some of you don't understnad this. It's not really that complicated.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Racing is completely different overseas. There are many possible reasons as to why they can run more often over there. In US races, horss are often times running hard the entire race. In Europe, they often times just gallop the entire race and only run their hardest the final quarter or 3/8 of a mile. They train the horses totally differenty over there. They give them these long gallops on soft grass. Here they train them on the hard dirt and they have to train them for speed since the fractions of our races are very fast.

From training on the dirt, horses in this country get all kinds of foot problems that are pretty much non-existant in Europe. To suggest that horses here could run more often since they run more often in Europe is absurd.

Guys like Frankel have been training for over 30 years. He's run thousand of horses on 3 weeks rest and he's run thousands of horses on 4-5 weeks rest. So have all the other trainers. They have seen that horses run much better and stay sounder if you give them more time between races. This is no great mystery. I don't get why some of you don't understnad this. It's not really that complicated.

Part of the reason we don't get it is that the best trainers from 20 years ago were running horses on 2-3 weeks rest, and those horses appeared to be running very well. We're not convinced that the breed has changed so much in 20 years or that trainers have gotten so much smarter.

And I'm sure there's an element that we WANT horses to be able to run more often that is influencing our responses, too.

--Dunbar

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Part of the reason we don't get it is that the best trainers from 20 years ago were running horses on 2-3 weeks rest, and those horses appeared to be running very well. We're not convinced that the breed has changed so much in 20 years or that trainers have gotten so much smarter.

And I'm sure there's an element that we WANT horses to be able to run more often that is influencing our responses, too.

--Dunbar

I don't think things have changed that much the last 20 years. I was going to the track every day back in the 1980s. Horses neded time between races in the 1980s too. For example, horses were usually tired after the Triple Crown races and usually got a couple of months off. I don't see a huge difference betwen now and the 1980s. I really don't know much about the 1960s and 1970s but from what people have said it sounds like horses were running much more often back then. It sounds like things are quite different now from 40 years ago, but not from 20 years ago.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by LOSE=GLUE

I like it when women get "fresh" w/ me

LMFAO! Good one...

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think things have changed that much the last 20 years. I was going to the track every day back in the 1980s. Horses neded time between races in the 1980s too. For example, horses were usually tired after the Triple Crown races and usually got a couple of months off. I don't see a huge difference betwen now and the 1980s. I really don't know much about the 1960s and 1970s but from what people have said it sounds like horses were running much more often back then. It sounds like things are quite different now from 40 years ago, but not from 20 years ago.

Rupert, I was thinking of horses like Alysheba, who ran 7 times as a 2-yr-old, 10 times as a 3-year-old, and 9 times at 4. Sunday Silence ran 9 times as a 3-yr-old. Ferdinand ran 29 times in his career. Holy Bull ran 10 times as a 3-yr-old.

And if we go back just 26-28 years, we have Spectacular Bid racing 9 times as a 2-yr-old, an astounding 12 times as a 3-yr-old, and 9 times as a 4-yr-old. And he didn't lose any of those last 9 races.

What makes the 12 times as a 3-yr-old even more astounding was that he WAS given time off after the Belmont, at least in part because of the hoof injury. So a lot of those 12 races had to be coming on very short rest.

--Dunbar

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Rupert, I was thinking of horses like Alysheba, who ran 7 times as a 2-yr-old, 10 times as a 3-year-old, and 9 times at 4. Sunday Silence ran 9 times as a 3-yr-old. Ferdinand ran 29 times in his career. Holy Bull ran 10 times as a 3-yr-old.

And if we go back just 26-28 years, we have Spectacular Bid racing 9 times as a 2-yr-old, an astounding 12 times as a 3-yr-old, and 9 times as a 4-yr-old. And he didn't lose any of those last 9 races.

What makes the 12 times as a 3-yr-old even more astounding was that he WAS given time off after the Belmont, at least in part because of the hoof injury. So a lot of those 12 races had to be coming on very short rest.

--Dunbar

I think that horses today can run 10 times a year. I don't see a problem with that. I think horses can run every 4-5 weeks. But if I had a horse who I really thought could win the Breeder's Cup, I probably wouldn't run him that many times because I would want him to be realtively fresh for the race. I'd probably time it so that the BC would be his 6th race of the year. If the horse was a Grade III type of horse and not a BC type of horse then I would try to run the horse 9-10 times a year.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think that horses today can run 10 times a year. I don't see a problem with that. I think horses can run every 4-5 weeks. But if I had a horse who I really thought could win the Breeder's Cup, I probably wouldn't run him that many times because I would want him to be realtively fresh for the race. I'd probably time it so that the BC would be his 6th race of the year. If the horse was a Grade III type of horse and not a BC type of horse then I would try to run the horse 9-10 times a year.

The biggest problem is that way too many with a G3 type horse are campaigning their horse like a BC type horse.

[Five Star Derek]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Racing is completely different overseas. There are many possible reasons as to why they can run more often over there. In US races, horss are often times running hard the entire race. In Europe, they often times just gallop the entire race and only run their hardest the final quarter or 3/8 of a mile. They train the horses totally differenty over there. They give them these long gallops on soft grass. Here they train them on the hard dirt and they have to train them for speed since the fractions of our races are very fast.

From training on the dirt, horses in this country get all kinds of foot problems that are pretty much non-existant in Europe. To suggest that horses here could run more often since they run more often in Europe is absurd.

Guys like Frankel have been training for over 30 years. He's run thousand of horses on 3 weeks rest and he's run thousands of horses on 4-5 weeks rest. So have all the other trainers. They have seen that horses run much better and stay sounder if you give them more time between races. This is no great mystery. I don't get why some of you don't understnad this. It's not really that complicated.

Rupert-I respect your opinions and look forward to your posts but I think you need to give a little more credence to some of the information that some people have posted concerning racing frequency. I'm not saying that I neccesarily agree with all of this but I can't dismiss it so quickly as you seem to be able to do. The previous thread dealing with this has caused me to do my own research and forced me to think "outside the box" a little bit instead of using convetional wisdom. There is too much data available to simply just ignore. I am still very much on the fence about this but am planning to do a very thorough investigation into this to find out more. I am a novice when it comes to racing outside of the US and Canada so I am in no position to have a definitve opinion on the matter. I'm just saying that you have too much to offer in terms of knowledge and input to be so close minded when it comes to this issue.

Clearly the Breeders' Cup changed the schedules for horses after 1984. Now horses 'debut' in late spring on their way to a campaign toward the Breeders' Cup. Pletcher and Frankel are examples of the 'new' trainers who cannot and will not run their horses too much for fear of losing. Gone are the days when you went to Belmont in the fall to see the top horses run three Grade I races in a five week period in the Fall Triple Crown. Mineshaft would have run in all three, but the Marlboro Cup no longer exists. I shall take Old School over this any day.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Five Star Derek

Rupert-I respect your opinions and look forward to your posts but I think you need to give a little more credence to some of the information that some people have posted concerning racing frequency. I'm not saying that I neccesarily agree with all of this but I can't dismiss it so quickly as you seem to be able to do. The previous thread dealing with this has caused me to do my own research and forced me to think "outside the box" a little bit instead of using convetional wisdom. There is too much data available to simply just ignore. I am still very much on the fence about this but am planning to do a very thorough investigation into this to find out more. I am a novice when it comes to racing outside of the US and Canada so I am in no position to have a definitve opinion on the matter. I'm just saying that you have too much to offer in terms of knowledge and input to be so close minded when it comes to this issue.

My opinion is based on 25 years of experience as both a handicapper and an owner. I've literally handicapped tens of thousands of races over the last 25 years. If there was only thing I've learned over all these years it would be that horses do not last and do not stay in form if you run them too often. This is something that I have learned.

Let me give you an analogy. Let's say that there are two possible routes that you can take to get home from work. You're not sure which route is quicker, so you try them both. You switch off practically every day for several months. If Route #1 usually takes you 20 minutes to get home and Route #2 usually takes you 30 minutes to get home, and you know that from trying it 50 times, then I think you will be very confident that Route #1 is quicker. If you tell me that you are sure that Route #1 is quicker, I could tell you that you are being close-minded. That would be pretty silly on my part though because if you are basing your opinion on experience, and you had no preconceived notions, then I think you should be confident that your opinion is correct. I shouldn't even call it an opinion. It would actually be a fact that Route #1 is quicker.