What is Racing's Biggest Current Hurdle?

Gander · #1 12-23-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

The game doesn't need fans. The game needs gamblers.

I dont think you have much to worry about. How is this game going to attract new fans when the few stars we do have run 4-5 race campaigns and take 7 months off between starts. From tomorrow's DRF....

Fabulous Strike is getting a break on a farm in Ocala, Fla., and will be pointed to a limited 7-year-old campaign in 2010 that his connections hope ends with a start in the Breeders' Cup Sprint at Churchill Downs in November.

A multiple stakes winner, Fabulous Strike has not raced since getting run down by Kodiak Kowboy in the Grade 1 Vosburgh in the slop at Belmont in early October.

A much deserved break after running all of what, 5 times in 2009?

Kasept · #2 12-23-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander

I dont think you have much to worry about. How is this game going to attract new fans when the few stars we do have run 4-5 race campaigns and take 7 months off between starts. From tomorrow's DRF....

Fabulous Strike is getting a break on a farm in Ocala, Fla., and will be pointed to a limited 7-year-old campaign in 2010 that his connections hope ends with a start in the Breeders' Cup Sprint at Churchill Downs in November.

A multiple stakes winner, Fabulous Strike has not raced since getting run down by Kodiak Kowboy in the Grade 1 Vosburgh in the slop at Belmont in early October.

A much deserved break after running all of what, 5 times in 2009?

The 'sticking around' schtick makes for a nice argument, but it's a canard in this conversation. Stars may matter to 'fans', but they don't matter to gamblers. CJ has always been right on this subject, and was banging that drum before anyone. People who will make the difference at the windows contributing to handle in a meaningful way couldn't care less how long some high profile horse is around... (unless they are a money-burning favorite type of course).

Separately, why in the world would Fabulous Strike draw ire? All he does is show up every time out. Horses that run really fast are the most likely to get hurt and most likely to need time between starts. Todd Beattie has handled Fabulous Strike brilliantly, and his scheduling has ALLOWED him to make the starts he has and still have a horse going into his 7yo season.

Sightseek · #3 12-23-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

The 'sticking around' schtick makes for a nice argument, but it's a canard in this conversation. Stars may matter to 'fans', but they don't matter to gamblers. CJ has always been right on this subject, and was banging that drum before anyone. People who will make the difference at the windows contributing to handle in a meaningful way couldn't care less how long some high profile horse is around... (unless they are a money-burning favorite type of course).

Separately, why in the world would Fabulous Strike draw ire? All he does is show up every time out. Horses that run really fast are the most likely to get hurt and most likely to need time between starts. Todd Beattie has handled Fabulous Strike brilliantly, and his scheduling has ALLOWED him to make the starts he has and still have a horse going into his 7yo season.

Well it does kind of effect everyone overall when the lack of stars are responsible for not filling Stakes races and what should be a huge day for a track isn't.

Gander · #4 12-23-2009, 02:04 PM

I like both: Betting on cheap races and watching races where Fabulous Strike wins at 3/5 type odds, a la the Vanderbilt and True North. Guess I will have to wait until April to see Fabulous Strike again.

Any guesses on his return race? The Carter?

Duvalier · #5 12-23-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander

I like both: Betting on cheap races and watching races where Fabulous Strike wins at 3/5 type odds, a la the Vanderbilt and True North. Guess I will have to wait until April to see Fabulous Strike again.

Any guesses on his return race? The Carter?

According to Dave Grening's article in DRF a start in April or May is possible...but it didn't mention a specific race.

Kasept · #6 12-23-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvalier

According to Dave Grening's article in DRF a start in April or May is the target...but it didn't mention a specific race.

Work backwards...

BC Sprint at Churchill (Nov)...

Vosburgh (Oct)

Vanderbilt (Aug)

True North (June)

Churchill Downs H. (May, but don't know if you want to go 7f first start back)

Gander · #7 12-23-2009, 02:20 PM

Steve, has Fabulous Strike ever run at Churchill? Why not the Carter?

Duvalier · #8 12-23-2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Work backwards...

BC Sprint at Churchill (Nov)...

Vosburgh (Oct)

Vanderbilt (Aug)

True North (June)

Churchill Downs H. (May, but don't know if you want to go 7f first start back)

Interesting...thanks. The Aristides at Churchill in June was mentioned as a possibility for one of his starts also. The horse really has been well handled by Beattie throughout his career...props to him.

Riot · #9 12-23-2009, 02:13 PM

As important as gamblers are to horse racing, it's a pretty expensive and inefficient way to provide that entertainment or livelihood.

Providing a gambling outlet is not why breeders, owners, trainers, track workers form a whole industry around, and dedicate their lives, to a live animal.

Kasept · #10 12-23-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Well it does kind of effect everyone overall when the lack of stars are responsible for not filling Stakes races and what should be a huge day for a track isn't.

So 6-8 sophomores per year that may retire arguably early are responsible for stakes not filling to the brim? I don't buy that. While an overall lack of 'good' horses contributes to the problem, Stakes races with narrow fields are due to the inane overabundance of opportunities. There's too many stakes for the amount of horses. Cut down the stakes and boost the purses and you'll see what happens.

Sightseek · #11 12-23-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

So 6-8 sophomores per year that may retire arguably early are responsible for stakes not filling to the brim? I don't buy that. While an overall lack of 'good' horses contributes to the problem, Stakes races with narrow fields are due to the inane overabundance of opportunities. There's too many stakes for the amount of horses. Cut down the stakes and boost the purses and you'll see what happens.

I agree with you about there being too many opportunities.

Sightseek · #12 12-23-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

So 6-8 sophomores per year that may retire arguably early are responsible for stakes not filling to the brim? I don't buy that. While an overall lack of 'good' horses contributes to the problem, Stakes races with narrow fields are due to the inane overabundance of opportunities. There's too many stakes for the amount of horses. Cut down the stakes and boost the purses and you'll see what happens.

Question though - who do you let fail and who makes changes to their Stakes schedule and or cuts live racing days? I know everyone says that this needs to be done, yet simultaneously they are signing petitions to save xyz track and talking about how slots need to be approved etc.

First and foremost, the continuing decline of handle needs to be addressed, but once you really delve into the topic there are so many smaller factors that affect this and need fixing too.

johnny pinwheel · #13 12-28-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

So 6-8 sophomores per year that may retire arguably early are responsible for stakes not filling to the brim? I don't buy that. While an overall lack of 'good' horses contributes to the problem, Stakes races with narrow fields are due to the inane overabundance of opportunities. There's too many stakes for the amount of horses. Cut down the stakes and boost the purses and you'll see what happens.

i agree, but how do you cut down on races when every bull ring track has a racino with higher purses? if anything they keep adding races that are not even needed. mine that bird runs at mountaineer during haskell and travers time. the penn derby is a million with 2 good horses and 6 or 7 pigs. you are right they don't want fans they want gamblers. fans know what crap is. there needs to be a reasonable mix of fans and gamblers. as a gambler i'm glad when theres fields where only two horses have a chance. in many cases one horse and its a 1-5 shot, then even gambling is a lost cause thats why pic's are so popular. you can't make cracker crumbs on that unless you play pic's. as a fan i know its all garbage. the half dozen or so true grade 1 horse can run at 4 or 5 different tracks year round, on their perferred surface. yeah, that makes for great competition and thats what creates the "buzz". tickets are cashed and torn up right after the race. great races between the best horses gets you on tv. phony controversies between what coulda ,shoulda, might of because horses don't race(each other) is just another bad sign for the game.

MaTH716 · #14 01-03-2010, 10:48 AM

The most important that tracks/the sport needs is bettors. And the fact that they can't even get this right, reguarding the whole signal fiasco is amazing.

I've been looking foward to today all week, my first free day in a while just to sit relax and bet. I bought todays form and it covers:
Aqueduct Cancled
Gulfstream Signal dispute
Tampa Bay
Philadelphia Canceled
Fair Grounds Signal dispute
Santa Anita Signal dispute

Obviously the cancelations are bad luck. But we always discuss if there are to many races/tracks. But on this Sunday many people on the east coast only have access to about 2 tracks, Turfway and Tampa (not including Charestown and Hialeah). You would think that if racing can't fix this problem (where they are probably losing tons of money), how are they going to fix the other things that will supposedly make the game better. Bottom line is once again it's the bettors/fans that take it right in the shorts.

smuthg · #15 01-05-2010, 11:19 AM

http://www.r2collective.com/content/...he-first-time/

I found this article to be a good read...

"In the late 1970s, the groundbreaking book “Positioning; the Battle for Your Mind” was published. To this very day, it is often quoted by marketers. The authors contend that you, your business, or your organization must define who you are and market that definition into your customers’ minds. You “position” yourself, and hope that the position you have carved out is a good one. If it is, you succeed; if it is not, you fail."

#16 12-23-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

The 'sticking around' schtick makes for a nice argument, but it's a canard in this conversation. Stars may matter to 'fans', but they don't matter to gamblers. CJ has always been right on this subject, and was banging that drum before anyone. People who will make the difference at the windows contributing to handle in a meaningful way couldn't care less how long some high profile horse is around... (unless they are a money-burning favorite type of course).

Separately, why in the world would Fabulous Strike draw ire? All he does is show up every time out. Horses that run really fast are the most likely to get hurt and most likely to need time between starts. Todd Beattie has handled Fabulous Strike brilliantly, and his scheduling has ALLOWED him to make the starts he has and still have a horse going into his 7yo season.

You need to add "fans" in order to have a shot at turning them into "gamblers."

It's difficult to do that when the top horses run 4-6 times a year.

randallscott35 · #17 12-23-2009, 02:40 PM

You need to turn gamblers into fans. Horse racing needs to lower the takeout. It is not a non-starter. It needs to be done across the board.

The Indomitable DrugS · #18 12-23-2009, 03:23 PM

You have all kinds of little hurdles and a few big ones.

Easily the biggest problem though is that the sport is viewed as a suckers game that can't be beaten - a game played almost solely by degenerates and addicts.

Once someone gets past that and decides they want to give the game a shot - they find out how very intimidating the sports is to learn. It becomes obvious that some of the people sold to the public as experts on the sport clearly aren't exactly serious handicappers ... I think a lot of people conclude that the sport is all about betting, at a high rake, on inconsistant animals that run in circles with stupid little men on them.

A lot of people will still think messing around and doing that from time to time is pretty fun .. but it's not something they'll dive into like lame-ass poker.

The hottest thing now right here is scratch off tickets - some fool with rotten teeth in his early 20's hits for seven figures on a scratch off ticket .. and you can't go into a Country Fair without seeing lines five deep at the stupid scratch off vending machine.

2Hot4TV · #19 12-23-2009, 03:56 PM

Yes, lower the take out needs to be done.

Horse racing is a skill game much like poker.

The new players that get involved with poker have a chance to practice and polish thier game before they risk thier money and horse racing doesn't offer a way to gain experiance in a quick informal setting like poker.

We all know that to win at horse racing you have to spend time with a race, i.e. ThroGraph, Sheets, Form and watching past performances and today the little Gobbers dont want to wait or work for anything so they pull the handle on a slot machine and some find poker a challenge. Few are willing to work at handicapping and most don't want be a fool and risk thier money when they don't have a clue for 5/2 or 4/1.

hockey2315 · #20 12-23-2009, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Yes, lower the take out needs to be done.

Horse racing is a skill game much like poker.

The new players that get involved with poker have a chance to practice and polish thier game before they risk thier money and horse racing doesn't offer a way to gain experiance in a quick informal setting like poker.

We all know that to win at horse racing you have to spend time with a race, i.e. ThroGraph, Sheets, Form and watching past performances and today the little Gobbers dont want to wait or work for anything so they pull the handle on a slot machine and some find poker a challenge. Few are willing to work at handicapping and most don't want be a fool and risk thier money when they don't have a clue for 5/2 or 4/1.

Horse racing will never be as accessible as poker and will never be nearly as beatable.