Horsey All Decade Team

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Well done list, but War Pass was the best 2-year-old male of the decade? No mention of Vindication?

Absolutely War Pass was the best.

I wasn't a big fan of his going into his 3-year-old season .. but that was more because I didn't like the way he projected as a triple crown series prospect.

However, it would be extremely foolish to deny him the honor of decades top 2yo. I think he's one of the easiest choices.

He was undefeated, his win in the Champagne was sizzlingly fast. He won the Breeders Cup Juvenile in 1:42.67 - Indian Blessing needed 1:44.73 to soundly defeat Proud Spell that same day.

Respectable precocious middle distance horses like Kodiak Kowboy and Tale of Ekati ran 3rd and 4th .. beaten 16.75 lengths and 17.50 lengths .. in an 11 horse field.

Just a mind boggling performance against the clock. War Pass's 113 Beyer that day was higher than the 112 Beyer Hard Spun ran for finishing 2nd in the BC Classic that day .. both races used the exact same variant.

As for Vindication .. he's in the discussion for the 3rd or 4th spot.

Like War Pass, he was also 4-for-4 at two, and with two stakes wins. He won the Grade 3 Ky Cup Juvenile over a terrible field in very slow fashion - but had to overcome some trouble.

In the Breeders Cup Juvie ... Vindication had a great trip and needed 1:49.61 to score. By comparison, Storm Flag Flying won the Juv Fillies by a half length in final time of 1:49.60 - Hold That Tiger ran 3rd by 5 lengths to Vindy - but had an extremely tough trip.

I think Toccet had a good case to steal the Eclipse from Vindication. He won 4 Graded Stakes as a 2yo at or beyond a mile. He took the Champagne, Laurel Futurity, won the Remsen over Empire Maker, and beat Kafwain in the Hollywood Futurity. He was a complete no show in the BC Juvie though - basically fading after a few furlongs.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

As for Vindication .. he's in the discussion for the 3rd or 4th spot.

I think I would have him in the top 4, but I am especially surprised to see YOU give the nod to Street Sense over Vindication given your often-stated low opinion of Street Sense.
His races at AP as a 2yo were fairly unimpressive, and though he ran a very good race in a 3rd place effort at Keeneland on a surface he never liked, his CD race was the only truly superb effort of his season in my opinion.
I'd take Vindication's four races as a 2yo over Street Sense's four races.

Good list though DrugS. It makes for some good conversation.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I think I would have him in the top 4, but I am especially surprised to see YOU give the nod to Street Sense over Vindication given your often-stated low opinion of Street Sense.
His races at AP as a 2yo were fairly unimpressive, and though he ran a very good race in a 3rd place effort at Keeneland on a surface he never liked, his CD race was the only truly superb effort of his season in my opinion.
I'd take Vindication's four races as a 2yo over Street Sense's four races.

Good list though DrugS. It makes for some good conversation.

If you had to ask him who the most overrated horse of the last 15 years is, and you forced him into giving an answer, he'd almost certainly tell you Vindication.

He was the president of the anti Vindy fan club. He disliked that horse like PG1985 loves Giant's Causeway. It was almost pathological.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

If you had to ask him who the most overrated horse of the last 15 years is, and you forced him into giving an answer, he'd almost certainly tell you Vindication.

He was the president of the anti Vindy fan club. He disliked that horse like PG1985 loves Giant's Causeway. It was almost pathological.

At that time ... there were a lot of silly people talking about Vindication like he was an all-time great horse.

I was one of the people who thought Toccet was slightly more deserving of the Eclipse ... but I knew he wasn't getting it .. as an extreme emphasis is placed on the BC Juvie result.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

At that time ... there were a lot of silly people talking about Vindication like he was an all-time great horse.

I was one of the people who thought Toccet was slightly more deserving of the Eclipse ... but I knew he wasn't getting it .. as an extreme emphasis is placed on the BC Juvie result.

Aren't you guilty of putting an "extreme emphasis" on the BC Juvie by including Street Sense in the top four?
Good point about Toccet. He was a very good 2yo. I would probably put him above Street Sense as well.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Aren't YOU putting an "extreme emphasis" on the BC Juvie by including Street Sense in the top four?

I think its the way he won and what was behind him.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I think its the way he won and what was behind him.

What was behind him? Circular Quay, Great Hunter, Scat Daddy, Stormello, C P West, U D Ghetto, King of the Roxy, Skip Code, Teuflesberg, Pegasus Wind, Malt Magic, Got the Last Laugh and Principle Secret?

Real murderers' row right there..

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Aren't you guilty of putting an "extreme emphasis" on the BC Juvie by including Street Sense in the top four?
Good point about Toccet. He was a very good 2yo. I would probably put him above Street Sense as well.

Yes - but Street Sense's Juvie win was gigantic ... and maybe he got the 4th spot because I didn't want it to appear like I had some personal bias against him. Which I don't.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

He was the president of the anti Vindy fan club. He disliked that horse like PG1985 loves Giant's Causeway. It was almost pathological.

...said the Pot.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

...said the Pot.

Nah, I didn't hate Vindy. I just thought there was a whole lot more hype to him than substance.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Nah, I didn't hate Vindy. I just thought there was a whole lot more hype to him than substance.

Well, he was sired by Seattle Slew, so perhaps he suffered from wobbler syndrome.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Well, he was sired by Seattle Slew, so perhaps he suffered from wobbler syndrome.

Ha. Good one!

I did see IC at Vinery in 2000 though, when he was a five year old.

He was pretty much the only stallion left at the farm, as most of the others had gone south for the winter breeding season. When I asked why he didn't ship, they let me see him and he looked like he was a dying horse. They weren't too sure he was going to survive.

I doubt Slew becoming a wobbler in his old age had an effect on Vindication, but who knows, maybe you are right!

He probably really was one of the all time great 2yos.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Absolutely War Pass was the best.

I wasn't a big fan of his going into his 3-year-old season .. but that was more because I didn't like the way he projected as a triple crown series prospect.

However, it would be extremely foolish to deny him the honor of decades top 2yo. I think he's one of the easiest choices.

He was undefeated, his win in the Champagne was sizzlingly fast. He won the Breeders Cup Juvenile in 1:42.67 - Indian Blessing needed 1:44.73 to soundly defeat Proud Spell that same day.

Respectable precocious middle distance horses like Kodiak Kowboy and Tale of Ekati ran 3rd and 4th .. beaten 16.75 lengths and 17.50 lengths .. in an 11 horse field.

Just a mind boggling performance against the clock. War Pass's 113 Beyer that day was higher than the 112 Beyer Hard Spun ran for finishing 2nd in the BC Classic that day .. both races used the exact same variant.

As for Vindication .. he's in the discussion for the 3rd or 4th spot.

Like War Pass, he was also 4-for-4 at two, and with two stakes wins. He won the Grade 3 Ky Cup Juvenile over a terrible field in very slow fashion - but had to overcome some trouble.

In the Breeders Cup Juvie ... Vindication had a great trip and needed 1:49.61 to score. By comparison, Storm Flag Flying won the Juv Fillies by a half length in final time of 1:49.60 - Hold That Tiger ran 3rd by 5 lengths to Vindy - but had an extremely tough trip.

I think Toccet had a good case to steal the Eclipse from Vindication. He won 4 Graded Stakes as a 2yo at or beyond a mile. He took the Champagne, Laurel Futurity, won the Remsen over Empire Maker, and beat Kafwain in the Hollywood Futurity. He was a complete no show in the BC Juvie though - basically fading after a few furlongs.

Solid points, but I still see War Pass as a one-race wonder. His Champagne was a fine effort, but Pyro didn't exactly come back to light things up at three. Nor did Z Humor, Ready's Image or Majestic Warrior.

I also think Declan's Moon should be mentioned, though he always was overlooked for skipping the BC.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Solid points, but I still see War Pass as a one-race wonder. His Champagne was a fine effort, but Pyro didn't exactly come back to light things up at three. Nor did Z Humor, Ready's Image or Majestic Warrior.

I also think Declan's Moon should be mentioned, though he always was overlooked for skipping the BC.

I agree that Declan's Moon is in the mix for the 4th spot.

A lot of excellent 2-year-olds come back and flop at 3. Just as some very moderate 2-year-olds will bloom into sensational 3yos and older horses.

Go back and read the press clippings about Pyro's 3yo return race... they might seem laughable now ... but he did run a really great race in his 3yo return.

War Pass might have been moved up a lot by the slop .. but his Champagne was still gigantic - and he just crushed in every race. The 3yo version of him was a total cripple.