Jerry Brown's letter to TDN on HOY discussion

Stickhorse · #1 11-15-2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

This is a little blurb from Oppenheim in the TDN (apologies for the strange print, it does that when you copy off a pdf) and I think he fails to realize that most of the people who watch the Breeder's Cup are existing fans of racing - whereas any Triple Crown race (Preakness) is watched by more people who we are trying to reach:

HORSE OF THE YEAR: Interesting comments, and
one thing they really highlight is the question: what are
the criteria for Horse of the Year? Those of us with
votes will be fascinated to refresh our memories when
the NTRA directive on the subject is issued to Eclipse
voters. But here=s a thought--it=s not necessarily about
the fastest horse of the year, or even the horse with
the best form. I=m not for Zenyatta strictly because she
won the GI Breeders= Cup Classic, beating colts and
breaking Personal Ensign=s unbeaten record in the process.
I=m for Zenyatta just as much because, in a sport
that has been threatening to sink without trace from
American public consciousness following Barbaro=s horrible
breakdown in the 2006 GI Preakness, and Eight
Belles=s horrible breakdown after finishing second in the
2008 GI Kentucky Derby, Zenyatta=s win over the colts
in the Breeders= Cup Classic actually got some ink, and
restored a modicum of respectability to our sport in the
wider public eye. She achieved more than even Rachel
did in that hugely important sphere--those Americans
who have only the mildest of interest in whether horse
racing continues to exist in this country or not. That=s
why--unless they tell me that=s not a valid criterion--she
gets my vote.

gales0678 · #2 11-15-2009, 09:22 AM

Zenyatta=s win over the colts
in the Breeders= Cup Classic actually got some ink, and
restored a modicum of respectability to our sport in the
wider public eye. She achieved more than even Rachel
did in that hugely important sphere--those Americans
who have only the mildest of interest in whether horse
racing continues to exist in this country or not.

the problem is that those with mild interest in the sport most likely don't know dirt from pro-ride or know very little about it

when you have the BC 2 years in a row on the pro-ride surface and not 1 dirt horse wins the results mean less , thus Zenyatta's win means less , she is a poly track specialist who ducked coming east this year to run on the dirt and faced no competetion to speak of this year .....simply put it would be a tradegy for horseracing if they give any horse , hoy , for winning only on the poly surface

brianwspencer · #3 11-15-2009, 09:34 AM

It's curious at best to me why there is so much emotional argument made for Zenyatta.

Those who believe that Rachel deserves the award based on her achievements on the track have trotted out statistic after statistic, talking only about her performances on the track THIS YEAR.

Those who believe Zenyatta deserve it make some flimsy case for her winning it based on the actual racing, mentioning Life Is Sweet running behind her a couple times, mentioning the Grade I Breeders' Cup (Turf) Classic, and then move on to things that have nothing to do at all with racetrack accomplishments. Look at how many people were cheering for her at Santa Anita -- you should have heard it! Look at the press she got! She brought tears to my eyes! She's never lost, even including last year, so she is overdue for a HOY! Mike Smith said she only hit third gear! Jackson is an a$shole and Asmussen is a cheater! If only they had run once past Labor Day, we wouldn't even be having this discussion! Sherriffs threw his hat in the crowd! Didju see that?! Didju see that -- he is so nice and was having so much fun, I cried! Look at how happy I am, it would be a black eye if we didn't give her HOY!

gales0678 · #4 11-15-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

It's curious at best to me why there is so much emotional argument made for Zenyatta.

Those who believe that Rachel deserves the award based on her achievements on the track have trotted out statistic after statistic, talking only about her performances on the track THIS YEAR.

Those who believe Zenyatta deserve it make some flimsy case for her winning it based on the actual racing, mentioning Life Is Sweet running behind her a couple times, mentioning the Grade I Breeders' Cup (Turf) Classic, and then move on to things that have nothing to do at all with racetrack accomplishments. Look at how many people were cheering for her at Santa Anita -- you should have heard it! Look at the press she got! She brought tears to my eyes! She's never lost, even including last year, so she is overdue for a HOY! Mike Smith said she only hit third gear! Jackson is an a$shole and Asmussen is a cheater! If only they had run once past Labor Day, we wouldn't even be having this discussion! Sherriffs threw his hat in the crowd! Didju see that?! Didju see that -- he is so nice and was having so much fun, I cried! Look at how happy I am, it would be a black eye if we didn't give her HOY!

Brian tell me a dirt horse that won a Breeders Cup race over the last 2 years on the pro - ride surface. The results from last week do not help her case.
If she ran on the dirt and won some grade 1's , you may have a case , but this pro-ride stuff is 2nd tier and no horse should win any awards without running on the dirt and beating quality horses on the dirt - horse racing is dirt not pro-ride

brianwspencer · #5 11-15-2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gales0678

Brian tell me a dirt horse that won a Breeders Cup race over the last 2 years on the pro - ride surface. The results from last week do not help her case.
If she ran on the dirt and won some grade 1's , you may have a case , but this pro-ride stuff is 2nd tier and no horse should win any awards without running on the dirt and beating quality horses on the dirt - horse racing is dirt not pro-ride

What are you talking about?

Did you not read my post at all?

gales0678 · #6 11-15-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

What are you talking about?

Did you not read my post at all?

read it now

RolloTomasi · #7 11-15-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

It's curious at best to me why there is so much emotional argument made for Zenyatta.

That's the whole point. Its not just a statistical debate. In the end, it's gonna be a popularity contest (with possible "political" considerations involved, ie who was better for racing). Zenyatta's paddock routine of posing and pawing the ground may even sway voters (thanks Steve Haskin).

Its obvious who racked up the most accomplishments, so why don't people debate who was more popular?

dellinger63 · #8 11-15-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

It's curious at best to me why there is so much emotional argument made for Zenyatta.

Those who believe that Rachel deserves the award based on her achievements on the track have trotted out statistic after statistic, talking only about her performances on the track THIS YEAR.

Jackson is an a$shole and Asmussen is a cheater! !

That closes the case for me. And Brian you of all people know humans vote more on emotion than anything else, it's in our nature.

BC was open to Rachel and Jax/Asm chose not to go because of the poly (still shedding Curlin tears) TOUGH. IMO she missed the final exam by choice and gets a zero. Factor a zero into their beyers and TG's and she loses. Besides by giving Zen HOY it forces Jackson into an emotional state where it would be more likely to return next year to avenge a perceived wrong as opposed to doing it for the fans.

johnjaydog95 · #9 11-15-2009, 10:35 AM

So, why even have the rest of the season (besides the Triple Crown)? Run in the Breeder's Cup, win, HOTY. That'll do a lot for the fans.

MaTH716 · #10 11-15-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

That closes the case for me. And Brian you of all people know humans vote more on emotion than anything else, it's in our nature.

BC was open to Rachel and Jax/Asm chose not to go because of the poly (still shedding Curlin tears) TOUGH. IMO she missed the final exam by choice and gets a zero. Factor a zero into their beyers and TG's and she loses. Besides by giving Zen HOY it forces Jackson into an emotional state where it would be more likely to return next year to avenge a perceived wrong as opposed to doing it for the fans.

I don't understand why the Rachel camp is the only one getting penalized/scrutinized for not going to the BC (and a surface that they did not want to run on). Moss had every opportunity to ship away from California and race. Maybe if he decided to ship, his case for the horse of the year would be a bit better today reguardless if they beat Rachel or not.

johnjaydog95 · #11 11-15-2009, 10:51 AM

I ran into a couple of posters on a non-racing focused horse sports board who insisted that Zenyatta deserves HOTY because Rachel's races were "cherry-picked" by Jackson/Asmussen to be ones that Rachel "could win."

When I pointed out that there were two things wrong with that argument, they went nutty on me and started talked about how hard the BCC made them cry.

miraja2 · #12 11-15-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I don't understand why the Rachel camp is the only one getting penalized/scrutinized for not going to the BC (and a surface that they did not want to run on). Moss had every opportunity to ship away from California and race. Maybe if he decided to ship, his case for the horse of the year would be a bit better today reguardless if they beat Rachel or not.

The reason is because some people have elevated the Breeders' Cup to an absolutely absurd status. These people seem to believe that the BCC counts for more than the Oaks, Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward put together simply because somebody put the idiotic title "World Championships" after one particular weekend of racing. It is a complete farce.

Danzig · #13 11-15-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

The reason is because some people have elevated the Breeders' Cup to an absolutely absurd status. These people seem to believe that the BCC counts for more than the Oaks, Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward put together simply because somebody put the idiotic title "World Championships" after one particular weekend of racing. It is a complete farce.

freddymo · #14 11-15-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

That closes the case for me. And Brian you of all people know humans vote more on emotion than anything else, it's in our nature.

BC was open to Rachel and Jax/Asm chose not to go because of the poly (still shedding Curlin tears) TOUGH. IMO she missed the final exam by choice and gets a zero. Factor a zero into their beyers and TG's and she loses. Besides by giving Zen HOY it forces Jackson into an emotional state where it would be more likely to return next year to avenge a perceived wrong as opposed to doing it for the fans.

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

miraja2 · #15 11-15-2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

brianwspencer · #16 11-15-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

This is begging for a picture of Kanye interrupting Zenyatta.

freddymo · #17 11-15-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

This is begging for a picture of Kanye interrupting Zenyatta.

That is a job for Mr Pants

dellinger63 · #18 11-15-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo

"Final exam".. This is so ridiculous. I am not suggesting you are ridiculous just your characterization of the BC Classic as an exam. What was the "Final Exam" before the BC Cup? So now all stake races including G1's have been reduced to homework assignments and quizzes? While I enjoy the BC Cup, this philosopy that the BC is a "final Exam" has caused racing immeasurable harm.

Yo Tim Ice you won the Travers but the Joke is on you as its just a Quiz..Wooley HAHA its just the Deby.. Come on man think this thru!

my anti-Jackson bias won't allow it. I don't believe Rachel is coming back next year. She'll have some 'minor' mysterious setback and that will be it. Should Zen win HOY ole Jess will be emotionally forced to bring back Rachel and try and dominate.That I want to see. It's a win-win situation IMO

Danzig · #19 11-15-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

my anti-Jackson bias won't allow it. I don't believe Rachel is coming back next year. She'll have some 'minor' mysterious setback and that will be it. Should Zen win HOY ole Jess will be emotionally forced to bring back Rachel and try and dominate.That I want to see. It's a win-win situation IMO

your reasoning becomes more absurd with each post. sorry, gotta disagree with you in this case.

freddymo · #20 11-15-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellinger63

my anti-Jackson bias won't allow it. I don't believe Rachel is coming back next year. She'll have some 'minor' mysterious setback and that will be it. Should Zen win HOY ole Jess will be emotionally forced to bring back Rachel and try and dominate.That I want to see. It's a win-win situation IMO

Who dislikes jacksons ways more then Cannon Shell? Rachel was made by G-d and Wiggins, mostly g-d. She would have been great with virtually any qualified horseman. Same with Zenyatta. While I don't discount superior horsemanship I fugure the great ones like Zenyatta and Rachel don't need anything but opportunity.