East VS West The 06 Breeders Cup

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It is because there is little prestige to any of the major California races for breeding purpose. A Grade 1, or grade 2, is not necessarily the same eveywhere. Races like the Met and JCGC carry much more weight than races like the P Classic or even the Hollywood Gold Cup.

Like it or not, the important races are pretty much all in the East.

I would have to disagree, the past winners of both the Pac Classic & Hollywood Gold Cup were given very nice Stud deals:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.p...eld=view&id=16

Rock Hard Ten's Stud deal was very solid to and he entered Stud at the same fee as Saint Liam.

[blackthroatedwind]

Which one of those races did Rock Hard Ten win?

Borrego won the JCGC....Pleasantly Perfect the BC Classic. What was Skimming's, repeat winner of the P Classic, deal?

If you think there is prestige to the 20 year old P Classic I think you are mikstaken.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Which one of those races did Rock Hard Ten win?

Borrego won the JCGC....Pleasantly Perfect the BC Classic. What was Skimming's, repeat winner of the P Classic, deal?

If you think there is prestige to the 20 year old P Classic I think you are mikstaken.

RHT didn't win either, but I was using him as an example that winning Graded Stakes in California is respected for a stallion deal. The Strub series is a great springboard for advertisement. Won at 7 furlongs to a mile and a quarter blah, blah blah

My point is, Graded Stakes at the top tracks matter whether they are on the east coast or west coast. Combine this with a top class pedigree and most breeders are not going to care what side of the country the horse raced in. Your point of Borrego & Pleasantly Perfect embraces the fact that CA Graded Stakes winners are competitive with their east coast counterparts and are therefore recognized as so by breeders.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

RHT didn't win either, but I was using him as an example that winning Graded Stakes in California is respected for a stallion deal. The Strub series is a great springboard for advertisement. Won at 7 furlongs to a mile and a quarter blah, blah blah

My point is, Graded Stakes at the top tracks matter whether they are on the east coast or west coast. Combine this with a top class pedigree and most breeders are not going to care what side of the country the horse raced in. Your point of Borrego & Pleasantly Perfect embraces the fact that CA Graded Stakes winners are competitive with their east coast counterparts and are therefore recognized as so by breeders.

The Strub series does have some cache obviously, though Rock Hard Ten is not a great example for obvious reasons, but as for the rest of what you said....well.....it's probably basically wrong. I don't want to fight about this but you might want to look into the situation a little more.

It's not really a " what side of the country " thing....it's perceived importance of races. The East has it....the West doesn't ( in general ).

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The Strub series does have some cache obviously, though Rock Hard Ten is not a great example for obvious reasons, but as for the rest of what you said....well.....it's probably basically wrong. I don't want to fight about this but you might want to look into the situation a little more.

It's not really a " what side of the country " thing....it's perceived importance of races. The East has it....the West doesn't ( in general ).

I agree that was the case, but I think it is going to become less and less so.

[bigjag0716]

Hard to tell right now but I guarantee the west will win at least 2 races,they always do.

[SniperSB23]

There is a different style of racing out West that combined with the harder surfaces makes it difficult and more dangerous for a horse to ship out for one race. It could take a few races for a top horse to get used to those conditions so why would you bother to ship out for one race. While I agree that the Whitney and Met Mile are more prestigious to breeders than the Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic I think winning one from both coasts would carry huge weight with breeders, moreso than winning both from the same coast. As California shifts to a safer, less biased surface in polytrack I think we will see more east coast horses that have shown a liking for polytrack going west to take down the $1 million purses.

[Buffymommy]

Not to start or get into an arguement since everyone knows I love the horse, but RH10's stud deal may also have had something to do with his daddy being the "LATE" Kris S, who was a good daddy. I am not arguing anything about RH10. Just stating that his stud deal may not only have had to deal with his race record.

So don't diss my boy.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Which one of those races did Rock Hard Ten win?

Borrego won the JCGC....Pleasantly Perfect the BC Classic. What was Skimming's, repeat winner of the P Classic, deal?

If you think there is prestige to the 20 year old P Classic I think you are mikstaken.

Isn't this a case of the better a pedigree the higher the stud fee, in the end the different Gr.1's may look fancier on a resume, but the pedigree is the major difference, ie.. an Unbridled winning the Pacific Classic is going to be more attractive to breeders than a Tiznow winning the JCGC. Skimming was just not attractive to breeders on any coast, he simply loved Del Mar.

Two of my favorite horses are West Coast runners, Lava Man and The Tin Man. I do not think either will win a BC race, however. The Europeans will dominate the three turf races and East Coast horses will win the Distaff, the Sprint, and the Classic, in my opinion. The Juvenile and the Juvenile Filly are a coin toss.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

Isn't this a case of the better a pedigree the higher the stud fee, in the end the different Gr.1's may look fancier on a resume, but the pedigree is the major difference, ie.. an Unbridled winning the Pacific Classic is going to be more attractive to breeders than a Tiznow winning the JCGC. Skimming was just not attractive to breeders on any coast, he simply loved Del Mar.

I agree with what you say. A blue blooded grade 1 winner is a blue blooded grade 1 winner. The only race that really makes a HUGE difference is the KYD anyway.

However, if the pedigree on each respective horse were identical, I would agree that the horse winning the east coast races would get more attention and a higher fee.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I agree with what you say. A blue blooded grade 1 winner is a blue blooded grade 1 winner. The only race that really makes a HUGE difference is the KYD anyway.

However, if the pedigree on each respective horse were identical, I would agree that the horse winning the east coast races would get more attention and a higher fee.

This is very true. Many West Coasters feel the industry looks down their noses at their stakes races and feel there is a major bias. Trust me I am a frequent poster on the Del Mar site and there is a huge East Coast inferiority complex out there.
There may be a bias but it is based on the fact that the East Coast Stakes races are much, much older, many well over a hundred years and are the foundation of the sport today.
Also it has a lot to do with the fact that on the East Coast you will see many different horses from different circuits ship to each other races. For example you will see the Ky based horses and the NY based horse and mid Atlantic based horse all ship to each others major races. Therefore racing against stronger and different competition. In So Cal you pretty much have the same horses, outside an occasional shipper from the East, competing with each other.
It's just my opinion of why East Coast Stakes races are weighed more heavily.

Originally Posted by boswd

This is very true. Many West Coasters feel the industry looks down their noses at their stakes races and feel there is a major bias. Trust me I am a frequent poster on the Del Mar site and there is a huge East Coast inferiority complex out there.
There may be a bias but it is based on the fact that the East Coast Stakes races are much, much older, many well over a hundred years and are the foundation of the sport today.
Also it has a lot to do with the fact that on the East Coast you will see many different horses from different circuits ship to each other races. For example you will see the Ky based horses and the NY based horse and mid Atlantic based horse all ship to each others major races. Therefore racing against stronger and different competition. In So Cal you pretty much have the same horses, outside an occasional shipper from the East, competing with each other.
It's just my opinion of why East Coast Stakes races are weighed more heavily.

I agree with you on all points. I would just like to add in Mineshaft and his connections here. They took considerable heat for not running their horse in a West Coast Breeders' Cup; it was not the shipping, but the destination that was the problem. The connections just do not run in California. The connections are East Coast in their thinking; they are old guard who thought winning Grade I's at Belmont spelled champion. Until rather recently champions were crowned there. Slew O' Gold is an example of that; he almost owned fall championship races at Belmont and he had the Eclipses to prove it. I would be very surprised to see Bernardini run on the West Coast, if he runs next year. The Breeders' Cup is in the East next year anyway.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

I agree with you on all points. I would just like to add in Mineshaft and his connections here. They took considerable heat for not running their horse in a West Coast Breeders' Cup; it was not the shipping, but the destination that was the problem. The connections just do not run in California. The connections are East Coast in their thinking; they are old guard who thought winning Grade I's at Belmont spelled champion. Until rather recently champions were crowned there. Slew O' Gold is an example of that; he almost owned fall championship races at Belmont and he had the Eclipses to prove it. I would be very surprised to see Bernardini run on the West Coast, if he runs next year. The Breeders' Cup is in the East next year anyway.

That is soo true. Fair or not races won at the two big NY Tracks weigh in the most. If you want an example of how important a win at Saratoga is just look at the standings in each of the divisions. Just look at Discreet Cat. He may be a monster but he is still to race in any major stakes here stateside and his win in an allowance race at Saratoga put him in the top ten 3 yr olds.

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I would have to disagree, the past winners of both the Pac Classic & Hollywood Gold Cup were given very nice Stud deals:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.p...eld=view&id=16

Rock Hard Ten's Stud deal was very solid to and he entered Stud at the same fee as Saint Liam.

Thats one horse.
Sightseek you really are sharper than that.
Tell you what!!! If you wanna make a bet right now before I call them up as to teh stud deals given to the past 10 Whitney winners and Met Mile winners as compared to the last 10 Hollywood Gold Cup winners and Pac Classic winners, please let me know. Its not even close, its a landslide.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Thats one horse.
Sightseek you really are sharper than that.
Tell you what!!! If you wanna make a bet right now before I call them up as to teh stud deals given to the past 10 Whitney winners and Met Mile winners as compared to the last 10 Hollywood Gold Cup winners and Pac Classic winners, please let me know. Its not even close, its a landslide.

Geesh, the JCGC really has gone downhill since Skip Away;

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.p...eld=view&id=82

Thank goodness Invasor & Bernardini will put some life into it. Looking over the lists of winners of these races really puts light on how badly horses are campaigned now and/or how much early retirements hurt.