She's Done

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

They are the race fractions, many of which were attended by the eventual winner.

Many of Which? not so much buddy, she fought off EVERY horse in the race and every challenge that came at her. Which means every single horse folded in the race except her because of the PACE.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Many of Which? not so much buddy, she fought off EVERY horse in the race and every challenge that came at her. Which means every single horse folded in the race except her because of the PACE.

See edited response above (#59). I was referring to the other runnings of these races, not the 2009 Woodward.

[brianwspencer]

On a side note, parsix, is there any history of how the track was playing on those given days from year to year? It may well prove out your theory, but I'd be interested to know what the general speed of the course was on each of those days in relation to one another.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

On a side note, parsix, is there any history of how the track was playing on those given days from year to year? It may well prove out your theory, but I'd be interested to know what the general speed of the course was on each of those days in relation to one another.

Actually, in a trip down memory lane (seeing some of the horses that ran on the undercards of some of these Grade I standards), the only track that I would consider unusually slow for the entire day was for the 2006 Woodward (an overcast day where they sealed the track but it didn't rain). Also, the track was reverse harrowed midway through the card for the 2008 Whitney, making it much slower for the second half of the card. Looking at all the data (considering final time and quality of horses running some of the main track undercard races), you could argue that the track for this year's Woodward was certainly one of the faster racing surfaces in this sample.

2002 Whitney (appeared to be a drying-out track):

2YO MSW (Sky Mesa): 1:10.4
NW1X (Najran): 1:22.3
NW3X (Voodoo): 1:21.2
Amsterdam (Listen Here): 1:09.2

2003 Whitney (went from muddy to fast thoughout the card):

2YO MSW (Birdstone): 1:10.1
NW2L (Draw Fire): 1:23.4
NW3X (Way to the Top): 1:22
Amsterdam (Zavata): 1:08.3

2004 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:12.4; 1:12.3
NW1X allowance: 1:51.1
Amsterdam (Bwana Charlie): 1:09.2
NY-bred NW1X (Friendly Island): 1:09.4

2005 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:18.2
NW2X (Ice Wynnd Fire): 1:50.3
Test (Leave Me Alone): 1:22.3

2006 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:17.2
Test (Swap Fliparoo): 1:24

2006 Woodward:

2YO MSW: 1:19.1; 1:17.3 (Tiz Wonderful)
NW2L (Diamond Stripes): 1:50.4
Forego (Pomeroy): 1:23.1

2007 Whitney:

2YO MSW (War Pass): 1:10.1
Vanderbilt (Diabolical): 1:08.3

2007 Woodward:

2YO MSW: 1:18.1; 1:17.4
Forego (Midnight Lute): 1:21.0

2008 Whitney:

NY-bred NW1X (Benny the Waiter): 1:09.3
2YO MSW (Munnings): 1:09.4
3YO and up MSW (Joppa Flat's): 1:21.3. (All before the reverse harrow)
Vanderbilt (Abraaj): 1:10.1
Go For Wand (Ginger Punch): 1:53.4

2008 Woodward:

NY-bred NW2x (Rollers): 1:09.2
NW2L allowance: 1:09.3
2YO MSW (Hello Broadway): 1:16.4
Forego (First Defense): 1:21.2

2009 Whitney:

NW2L claimer (Brecciate): 1:09.4
NY-bred mdn clm (Afrikaner): 1:16.3
Test (Flashing): 1:22.2

2009 Woodward:

25K starter allowance (Starforaday): 1:15.0
2YO MSW: 1:23.3 (Callide Valley); 1:23.4 (Gun Rock)
NW1X (Mesa Sunrise): 1:15.0
Forego (Pyro): 1:21.2

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Actually, in a trip down memory lane (seeing some of the horses that ran on the undercards of some of these Grade I standards), the only track that I would consider unusually slow for the entire day was for the 2006 Woodward (an overcast day where they sealed the track but it didn't rain). Also, the track was reverse harrowed midway through the card for the 2008 Whitney, making it much slower for the second half of the card. Looking at all the data (considering final time and quality of horses running some of the main track undercard races), you could argue that the track for this year's Woodward was certainly one of the faster racing surfaces in this sample.

2002 Whitney (appeared to be a drying-out track):

2YO MSW (Sky Mesa): 1:10.4
NW1X (Najran): 1:22.3
NW3X (Voodoo): 1:21.2
Amsterdam (Listen Here): 1:09.2

2003 Whitney (went from muddy to fast thoughout the card):

2YO MSW (Birdstone): 1:10.1
NW2L (Draw Fire): 1:23.4
NW3X (Way to the Top): 1:22
Amsterdam (Zavata): 1:08.3

2004 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:12.4; 1:12.3
NW1X allowance: 1:51.1
Amsterdam (Bwana Charlie): 1:09.2
NY-bred NW1X (Friendly Island): 1:09.4

2005 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:18.2
NW2X (Ice Wynnd Fire): 1:50.3
Test (Leave Me Alone): 1:22.3

2006 Whitney:

2YO MSW: 1:17.2
Test (Swap Fliparoo): 1:24

2006 Woodward:

2YO MSW: 1:19.1; 1:17.3 (Tiz Wonderful)
NW2L (Diamond Stripes): 1:50.4
Forego (Pomeroy): 1:23.1

2007 Whitney:

2YO MSW (War Pass): 1:10.1
Vanderbilt (Diabolical): 1:08.3

2007 Woodward:

2YO MSW: 1:18.1; 1:17.4
Forego (Midnight Lute): 1:21.0

2008 Whitney:

NY-bred NW1X (Benny the Waiter): 1:09.3
2YO MSW (Munnings): 1:09.4
3YO and up MSW (Joppa Flat's): 1:21.3. (All before the reverse harrow)
Vanderbilt (Abraaj): 1:10.1
Go For Wand (Ginger Punch): 1:53.4

2008 Woodward:

NY-bred NW2x (Rollers): 1:09.2
NW2L allowance: 1:09.3
2YO MSW (Hello Broadway): 1:16.4
Forego (First Defense): 1:21.2

2009 Whitney:

NW2L claimer (Brecciate): 1:09.4
NY-bred mdn clm (Afrikaner): 1:16.3
Test (Flashing): 1:22.2

2009 Woodward:

25K starter allowance (Starforaday): 1:15.0
2YO MSW: 1:23.3 (Callide Valley); 1:23.4 (Gun Rock)
NW1X (Mesa Sunrise): 1:15.0
Forego (Pyro): 1:21.2

* How did the horses who went out early with Rachel Alexandra in the Woodward do?

* How did the closers who sat furthest off of the early pace do?

You trap yourself a lot of times when you try and compare one-turn races with two-turn races on the same card. There are weather related factors that can screw you up.

Both the Preakness and Woodward were examples of VERY fast early paces that favored closers. Just as Zenyatta had to deal with VERY slow paces that didn't favor closers in the two races she earned the Beyers in the high 90's and barely beat allowance horses on losing streaks.

As for Commentator, he got away with absolute murder in his 2nd Whitney win .. in his first Whitney win he got no early pressure and steadily picked up the tempo in a very fast race.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

* How did the horses who went out early with Rachel Alexandra in the Woodward do?

Da' Tara ran his typically poor race in the Woodward. He was eased in his race before the Woodward. He was loose on the lead in a recent allowance race and folded badly. Rachel's presence really had little to do with his weak result.

Past the Point is clearly not the same horse that he was last year. If he was, he would have won the recent Bold Ruler, at his preferred 7F on dirt. He set a faster pace last year outrunning Wanderin' Boy early and held on. That he was done on the turn this year only further supports the conclusion that he's not as good this year as last.

[slotdirt]

Good pull, Kasept. In hindsight, was Moss indicating retirement for Zenyatta simply posturing for the Eclipse award? We'll never know.

[10 pnt move up]

Racing would be sooo much better off without guys like Moss in the sport.

lol csc got darted.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

lol csc got darted.

Did he really, I wondered what happened?

NT

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Many of Which? not so much buddy, she fought off EVERY horse in the race and every challenge that came at her. Which means every single horse folded in the race except her because of the PACE.

Every challenge? Look, I was cheering for her every step of the way, but that was D'atara and Past the Point running with her early. Enough said there.

She had enough to hold off Macho Again and Bullsbay with a final 8th in 12 4/5.

Would she have held off Summer Bird a week prior? Guess we'll never know that. Kudos to Jackson for picking the right spot.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Revidere

Every challenge? Look, I was cheering for her every step of the way, but that was D'atara and Past the Point running with her early. Enough said there.

She had enough to hold off Macho Again and Bullsbay with a final 8th in 12 4/5.

Would she have held off Summer Bird a week prior? Guess we'll never know that. Kudos to Jackson for picking the right spot.

Is this Jerry Bailey? Basically the exact same thing he said verbatim following the Classic on Saturday.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Is this Jerry Bailey? Basically the exact same thing he said verbatim following the Classic on Saturday.

That's funny, but no. He really said that. My racing IQ just got hammered.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by Revidere

Every challenge? Look, I was cheering for her every step of the way, but that was D'atara and Past the Point running with her early. Enough said there.

She had enough to hold off Macho Again and Bullsbay with a final 8th in 12 4/5.

Would she have held off Summer Bird a week prior? Guess we'll never know that. Kudos to Jackson for picking the right spot.

Totally different dynamics.

Rachel Alexandra was given ZERO breathers in the Woodward. None. She was running hard from start-to-finish. It doesn't matter who was running with her. Fast early is fast early. There's no way you can say she would of undergone similar pressure in the Travers.

And to be annoying... Past The Point loves Saratoga. Bullsbay was in career form at Saratoga. Macho Again is a hard-knocking elder who needs a pace setup to win... which he got, yet he still couldn't do it.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Totally different dynamics.

Rachel Alexandra was given ZERO breathers in the Woodward. None. She was running hard from start-to-finish. It doesn't matter who was running with her. Fast early is fast early. There's no way you can say she would of undergone similar pressure in the Travers.

And to be annoying... Past The Point loves Saratoga. Bullsbay was in career form at Saratoga. Macho Again is a hard-knocking elder who needs a pace setup to win... which he got, yet he still couldn't do it.

What was the alternative, to have riders let her cruise out on an easy lead and hand it to her on a platter? Because it's Rachel and not say Well Armed? Let's get real here it's horseracing, you race to win not finish 2nd or 3rd.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by CSC

What was the alternative, to have riders let her cruise out on an easy lead and hand it to her on a platter? Because it's Rachel and not say Well Armed. Let's get real here it's horseracing, you race to win not finish 2nd or 3rd.

I know, but to say that Rachel didn't have the worst of it in the Woodward vs. Travers is off in my opinion.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I know, but to say that Rachel didn't have the worst of it in the Woodward vs. Travers is off in my opinion.

That's impossible to say, if Rachel had raced in the Travers it's quite possible the riders would have changed their mindset in that race, something we will never know.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Many of Which? not so much buddy, she fought off EVERY horse in the race and every challenge that came at her. Which means every single horse folded in the race except her because of the PACE.

It's horseracing, you fight off challenges don't you if you are a good horse? I suggest putting down the pom poms for a sec and try to look at things objectively.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by CSC

It's horseracing, you fight off challenges don't you if you are a good horse? I suggest putting down the pom poms for a sec and try to look at things objectively.

BWahahahhahaha, seriously? You are totally blinded by west coast and synthetic bias. You're a joke

[CSC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

[/b]


BWahahahhahaha, seriously? You are totally blinded by west coast and synthetic bias. You're a joke

I'm from neither coast so I wouldn't know what you mean...