Why Lukas went downhill

[Rupert Pupkin]

Linny, I'll give you another example of a really good horse that ran with a pretty serious problem. One of my trainers was at Del Mar on Del Mar Futurit day back in 1999. He said that when Forrest Camp walked by him in the paddock, he couldn't belive he size of one of his ankles. He couldn't believe the horse was going to run on that ankle. Anyway, he won the race by about 5 lengths but that was the end of his career. He never ran again.

I'm sure they still made out fine. Because of the victory in that race, I think the horse was worth a few million dolllars for breeding.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

This is what I was trying to get at last night Rupert. You say all of these things about the methods in which Lukas trains, yet you make no mention of Baffert's name when referring to Forest Camp. Surely Baffert, Pletcher and probably every trainer have had horses run when sore, puffy ankles, etc. Why is Lukas any different than these guys? Lukas doesn't hide the fact that he is a businessman and a trainer. He is given the job to try and get the most out of his horses, so they can be sold, become broodmares, or get syndication deals.

Like I said before, Lukas is a million times worse than any of these guys. I'm not saying he is the only trainer that has ever run a sore horse. He certainly is not. But most of these guys pick their spots when they do this. These guys may run a horse with a minor injury if it's in a major race that they've been waiting for all year. They'll do it as a one-time deal type of thing. It's not their standard practice. With Lukas, it's his standard practice.

Bob Baffert may train his horses pretty hard but he is not opposed to turning a horse out if they need it. I see Baffert horses come back off 6-12 month layoffs all the time and do well. They will have successful campaigns sometimes after coming back off layoffs. Wat does that tell you? It tells you that he turned the horse out before the problem got too serious. If you keep running the horse after they get hurt, then a 12 month layoff won't do any good because permanent damage will be done to the horse. It's possible that ahorse like that could come back and runa couiple of mediocre races and maybe even win a race. But they won't come back and run as good as they were running before they got hurt. That is why you will practically never see a Lukas horse come back and do well off a layoff.

Lukas will keep running an injured horse over and over and over again until there is no way the horse can run any more. That is why Lukas has broken down so many horses and why there are very few insurance companies that will insure his horses. You have to remember that insurance companies keep very good records when it comes to this kind of stuff. Any time that a horse breaks their leg and dies and a claim is paid, there is a record kept of this type of thing. The record shows who the trainer of the horse was. This is a huge business that is very lucrative. These companies make a fortune. If you have a trainer that breaks down so many horses that's it's not even profitable for the insurers to insure him, then you know that there is a problem.

A trainer who has 200 horses will obviously have more horses break down than a tainer with 40 horses. The insurance companies obviously know this. They keep track of the percentages. The percentages are all that matter to them. Lukas is the only trainer that I know of that many insurance companies won't insure. I actually don't know if any will insure him. The ones that I know of will not.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Well a million times is a pretty big stretch. This could go on forever, I will agree with you that Lukas has had his fair share of breakdowns, and I don't know what the percentages are, but there are many trainers that train in a similar way of Lukas.

If there is another trainer that trains like him, I'd like to know who it is.

There are guys who may train cheap claimers like that but I don't know any trainer that trains good horses like that. Some of these trainers are real butchers when it comes to cheap claimers. They feel that it's not economical to turn them out so they will just run them no matter what. If they have a $10,000 claimer that is damaged beyond repair, it is pointless from a financial point of view to turn them out because they will come back with the same problem. It's expensive to turn a horse out. So these trainers will just keep running the horse. They will drop him in class if they need to but they won't turn them out. Some of these trainers will do this with a claiming horse even if he isn't damaged beyond repair. They may figure that two in the hand is better than one in the bush and they may also gigure that's its not worth it to spend $10,000 to give the horse a 6 month vacation if the horse is only worth $20,000 to begin with. They'd rather just drop the horse down in class and hope to win the race and get him claimed.

[Swap Fliparoo]

I have heard that Lukas swindles owners by racking up day rates on horses that are just standing around in the stall, clearly injured and bandaged up, instead of telling the owners and sending them back to the farm. I think Overbrook wised up to what was going on, among others.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by merasmag

run to death and it's ok cause he was never gonna be a stud anyway? that logic makes no sense to me...i guess this means richi's (it is richi, right?) saying that dwl is no better a person than a guy who runs cheap claimers into the ground to make a quick buck-if he's not saying it, if what he has said is true, i'm sayin it

No, you misunderstood me. That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that the claiming game is very cruel. I think what goes on with claimers should be illegal. I think it's basically cruelty to animals. They just inject their tendons and joints over and over and over again until the horses are crippled. I don't condone it any way. It's a part of racing that makes me sick. I hardly ever even watch claiming races. I never watch cheap claiming races.

So claiming races are not something that I really pay attention to these days. I know what goes on and I want nothing to do with it. In no way do I condone it.

Yes, it's Richi.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by merasmag

They just inject their tendons and joints over and over and over again until the horses are crippled.

so dwl does not do that? he just runs them without meds? is that better or worse? btw-hi, hope u are well

I didn't say DWL doesn't do that, I said he does do it. I said he does the same thing to good horses that guys do with claimers.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by merasmag

that's what i thought you said...so why shouldn't it be criminal? take your time cause i gotta go, i think my cat caught my sore throat and she is not happy-sweet dreams

I think it should be totally illegal. I think there are plenty of horses out there running that should not be running.

I think they need to make major changes. I think that all vet work done on a racehorse should be made public. I know it will probably never happen but it should. They make it public when a horse goes on lasix. Why should lasix be the only thing made public?

[prudery]

Originally Posted by merasmag

came in to turn this off so in light of what u just said what makes lukas any better than those guys? is it his suits?

i guess this means richi's (it is richi, right?) saying that dwl is no better a person than a guy who runs cheap claimers into the ground to make a quick buck-if he's not saying it, if what he has said is true, i'm sayin it

Love the line about the suits . But I have always felt DWL pounded his fancy stock like claimers . The man's record though is impressive, but rest assured, many of his big buck purchases are toiling away in obscurity . The man had carte blanche at the sales. However there was a reason for it . He is a fabulous judge of precocious stock . That got him there and he rode the gravy train . His barn and horses are impeccably turned out . And so is he . Great business . I thought his quarter horse background would keep him from making a splash in the TC and longer BC races, but though it took awhile, I was wrong Many of his horses, however, failed to train on in maturity---not that this does not happen to other trainers especially very recently ---and Steinlen is one who comes to mind that raced successfully as an older horse . But he only GOT Steinlen as a mature individual . Though I do not like the man or his training regime, I thought he did a very good job with Charismatic--recognizing an innate ability to go long, despite the colt's class jump . In fairness, the Belmont breakkdown could have happened with another trainer, so I will not lump this in with other D. Wayne catastrophies like Union City which was rumored to be unsound before his Preakness fatality . I have no knowledge about Lukas' insurabilty on his horses, but a vet friend who interned at a prominent equine clinic told me that when Lukas sent horses there they were significantly damaged .