I Really Wish I Could Have Seen......

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I think his final two preps were really nice, but if there was an anomaly in his race record, those two races were it. As for his two classic wins, the Preakness was his shining moment, but Corporate Report and Mane Minister weren't much.

You mean Travers winner Corporate Report? And again, let's ignore Best Pal and Olympio because they didn't actually hit the board so it was if they weren't even there.

Neither Olympio nor Best Pal had a viable excuse for getting lit up by Hansel in the Preakness. Both didn't miss anytime following their defeats and in fact finished the last half of the year strongly.

While one would have to concede off the winter Santa Anita races that Dinard held a slight edge over those two, it certainly wasn't anywhere near the tune of 10 lengths.

He never threw in a clunker.

As for those reports of him training poorly over the CD surface, I think that was entirely likely a result of his injury.

He also never ran anywhere outside of SA.

[CSC]

Dance Smartly vs. Black Tie Affair in the 91 Classic.

BTW I thought her BC Distaff was her second worst race of the year to the Prince of Wales at Fort Erie.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

Dance Smartly vs. Black Tie Affair in the 91 Classic.

BTW I thought her BC Distaff was her second worst race of the year to the Prince of Wales at Fort Erie.

She would have been thumped soundly by BTA.... but Inside Information probably would have beaten Cigar had she run in the '95 Classic.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

She would have been thumped soundly by BTA.... but Inside Information probably would have beaten Cigar had she run in the '95 Classic.

I wouldn’t say thumped for 2 reasons, she already had beaten Fly So Free decisively in the Molson Million and he was hardly disgraced in the Classic beaten by less than 4 lengths by a loose on the lead Black Tie Affair. The times of the Classic and Distaff were not overly dissimilar 1:50.95 & 2:02.95. I think she would have given him a better run for his money than Twilight Agenda had.

Inside Information raced against the clock in the distaff on a sloppy track earlier in the day and the time was impressive, but at 1 ¼ and on a listed stickier track in the Classic, Cigar would have broke her down, one thing times do not tell in a race are race dynamics and the pressure a horse can emit on its competition. Cigar would have tracked her, pressured her and broke her in the last furlong. I will say this she was a slop monster but as we have seen Cigar was not chopped liver on a wet track either.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

Cigar would have tracked her, pressured her and broke her in the last furlong. I will say this she was a slop monster but as we have seen Cigar was not chopped liver on a wet track either.

Absolutely not.

A.) Jerry Bailey wouldn't have used Cigar and forced him out of his comfort zone just to pressure a filly. Had Inside Info run in the Classic she wouldn't have been viewed as Cigar's only possible danger.

B.) horses don't run faster - they run slower races when taken out of their comfort zone to pressure another rival. See Cigar's Pacific Classic.

2nd place finisher L'Carriere, like mostly all of the horses Cigar beat, was pretty much a bum. Before running 2nd in the BC Classic .. he was 4th in the Meadowlands Cup behind former nickle claimer turned Juan Surey move-up Poor But Honest. In his start after his 2nd place finish in the BC Classic - he was 4th to Wekiva Springs.

This kind of sillyness reminds me a lot of how every single trainer I talked with up here swore Mine That Bird would have beat Rachel Alexandra in the Ky Derby. And many insisted Rachel Alexandra would have run no better than 5th in the Derby.

It's amusing how dumb people act when you talk about fillies running against males. I'm surprised there still aren't people who insist Rags To Riches would have had no shot of beating Curlin in the Belmont ... even though she actually did run in the Belmont - and actually did win the race.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Absolutely not.

A.) Jerry Bailey wouldn't have used Cigar and forced him out of his comfort zone just to pressure a filly. Had Inside Info run in the Classic she wouldn't have been viewed as Cigar's only possible danger.

B.) horses don't run faster - they run slower races when taken out of their comfort zone to pressure another rival. See Cigar's Pacific Classic.

A couple things, yes this is generally true for some horses but not in this case when discussing Cigar. You cited the Pacific Classic and I am glad you did, infact that race and to a lesser degree the Donn Hdcp against Holy Bull showed his versatility as a horse. Bailey could ask for speed if he needed it.

In the Pacific Classic his hand was forced by an overzealous Nakatani on Dramatic Gold to run early with the legitimate speedball Siphon on the lead, the fact that he won the battle against a horse like Siphon but only to lose the war to Dare And Go post Dubai illustrates to me he would have fractured Inside Information in the classic(again 1/8th farther than the Distaff and a yr earlier when he was probably better) had she ran. In 95 there is no way Inside Information could have won the battle and survived the war against Cigar, and I don't even think he would have had to run with her early, all he would have had to have done is lay off of her, make that sweeping move on the turn and cruise on by per his normal MO.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by CSC

A couple things, yes this is generally true for some horses but not in this case when discussing Cigar. You cited the Pacific Classic and I am glad you did, infact that race and to a lesser degree the Donn Hdcp against Holy Bull showed his versatility as a horse. Bailey could ask for speed if he needed it.

In the Pacific Classic his hand was forced by an overzealous Nakatani on Dramatic Gold to run early with the legitimate speedball Siphon on the lead, the fact that he won the battle against a horse like Siphon but only to lose the war to Dare And Go post Dubai illustrates to me he would have fractured Inside Information in the classic(again 1/8th farther than the Distaff and a yr earlier when he was probably better) had she ran. In 95 there is no way Inside Information could have won the battle and survived the war against Cigar, and I don't even think he would have had to run with her early, all he would have had to have done is lay off of her, make that sweeping move on the turn and cruise on by per his normal MO.

If Cigar had tried to sit off II in that circumstance, that race would have been over before it started.

His only hope, and it would have been a slim one at best, would have been to try to duel her into submission.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You mean Travers winner Corporate Report? And again, let's ignore Best Pal and Olympio because they didn't actually hit the board so it was if they weren't even there.

Neither Olympio nor Best Pal had a viable excuse for getting lit up by Hansel in the Preakness. Both didn't miss anytime following their defeats and in fact finished the last half of the year strongly.

While one would have to concede off the winter Santa Anita races that Dinard held a slight edge over those two, it certainly wasn't anywhere near the tune of 10 lengths.



He also never ran anywhere outside of SA.

Yeah, that Corporate Report. He won the Travers, yes. Whooopdee freakin doo.

You keep bringing up Best Pal. How well, exactly, did he do outside of California? Wasn't he one of those California superstars that did even better outside of California, or am I confusing him with Lava Man?

Olympio was a solid race horse, and on his best day pretty damn good. I really don't know how to place him in the context of this thread.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Yeah, that Corporate Report. He won the Travers, yes. Whooopdee freakin doo.

Yeah. It was a pretty crappy Travers. In defeat was the Preakness/Belmont winner, Florida Derby/2yo champion, Kentucky Derby/Blue Grass winner, and the Haskell/Dwyer/Peter Pan winner.

To be fair, Corporate report was bested by Best Pal in the Swaps in CA, and Olympio beat him in the Arkansas Derby (though CR was making maybe his 3rd career start). So I guess that means Dinard was a lock for the Travers, too.

You keep bringing up Best Pal. How well, exactly, did he do outside of California? Wasn't he one of those California superstars that did even better outside of California, or am I confusing him with Lava Man?

You mean the Best Pal who won the Oaklawn Handicap and was runner-up in the Kentucky Derby? Please spare me the 6- and 7-year old out-of-state runs.

Olympio was a solid race horse, and on his best day pretty damn good. I really don't know how to place him in the context of this thread.

You could easily place him if you were to use a head to head matchup with Dinard as a measuring stick.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yeah. It was a pretty crappy Travers. In defeat was the Preakness/Belmont winner, Florida Derby/2yo champion, Kentucky Derby/Blue Grass winner, and the Haskell/Dwyer/Peter Pan winner.

To be fair, Corporate report was bested by Best Pal in the Swaps in CA, and Olympio beat him in the Arkansas Derby (though CR was making maybe his 3rd career start). So I guess that means Dinard was a lock for the Travers, too.



You mean the Best Pal who won the Oaklawn Handicap and was runner-up in the Kentucky Derby? Please spare me the 6- and 7-year old out-of-state runs.



You could easily place him if you were to use a head to head matchup with Dinard as a measuring stick.

Cool.

So now you are using the Travers winner to show how good the Preakness and Belmont winner was, and you are using the Preakness/Belmont winner to show how good the Travers winner is.

Yeah, Best Pal was 2nd in the derby. Again, the field wasn't very strong, but since he beat Hansel, I guess you'll argue differently.

I had forgotten about the Oaklawn race. Honestly, I don't remember who he beat nor do I have the ability to find out right now. Refresh my memory please, as to whom he beat.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Cool.

So now you are using the Travers winner to show how good the Preakness and Belmont winner was, and you are using the Preakness/Belmont winner to show how good the Travers winner is.

No, you used "Travers" and "whoopdeedoo" in the same breath and I felt obliged to review the race. I was just pointing out that it was a strong field, as opposed to comparing specific horses. Hence the references to Fly So Free, Strike The Gold, and Lost Mountain as well.

Yeah, Best Pal was 2nd in the derby. Again, the field wasn't very strong, but since he beat Hansel, I guess you'll argue differently.

I know top handicap horse Another Review was in there. Just under a year later, he would prove to be much faster than AP Indy.

I had forgotten about the Oaklawn race. Honestly, I don't remember who he beat nor do I have the ability to find out right now. Refresh my memory please, as to whom he beat.

This should give you more ammo. Sea Cadet. Though look out for DrugS, because Sea Cadet would go on to run faster races than any of the nags we've been talking about.

In 3rd was the very good Twilight Agenda.