I Really Wish I Could Have Seen......

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You still neglect Hansel who almost certainly ran as fast, if not faster than any of Dinard's races in his track record performance in the Jim Beam.

Further, let's look at strict form with regards to Hansel:

Jim Beam: dusts Apollo by open lengths
Preakness: dusts Best Pal and Olympio by open lengths

Do you think that maybe the 9f of the Jim Beam might have been outside Apollo's best range?

How about the 45.3 and 109.3 splits he set? Or that he shipped to a surface that a lot of horses didn't like back then?

Or, maybe coming back in less than four weeks off one of the most gut wrenching performances we've seen out of a sprinter going a mile, that maybe that took something out of him?

Or, how about that Apollo, coming off that Dinard loss, never was the same horse again, winning only one time in those last 17 races of his career? This from a horse with four wins and a head loss to Dinard in his first 6 starts???

Get real man!

As for Hansel's GREAT three year old form going into the derby:

5th by 11 to Fly So Free in the FOY in a blazing fast 144.1

3rd by 5 to FSF again, in the Florida Derby. Strike the Gold second, a super blazing time of 150.2.

Then the 2.5 length win in the Jim Beam in 146.3 for 9f. Nice time, but beat Richman and Wilder Than Ever.

Then the romp in the Lexington. 9 length win over Shotgun Harry J. and Speedy Cure in 142.3.

Hansel did get sharp there, but against badly overmatched opponents and over lightning fast surfaces.

I'll take Dinard please.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

As for the SA Derby history, not sure where you going with the curse thing (how would this help your argument that Dinard was a lock in the Derby anyways?), but I was suggesting that Best Pal's runner-up efforts didn't necessarily mean he was not as good as Dinard, but rather a result of "prepping" for a more important contest (which would fall in line with the fact that Best Pal started the season late). Alluding to Silver Charm (who chased Free House), Real Quiet (who chased Artax and Indian Charlie), and Go For Gin (Irgun, Holy Bull) who all ultimately won the Derby was supposed to lend plausability to that scenario.

It really had nothing to do with anything. Just a weird run of bad luck for winners of that race.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

As for AP Indy, it seems contradictory to suggest he was a lock for the Derby as well, when you defend the thinking that Arazi was somehow cheated out of a Derby win (they both were entered for the '92 edition).

If Arazi was scratched raceday along AP Indy, who would have been more of a lock?

I followed the Arazi situation very closely. The trainer wanted no part of coming back to Kentucky, there were offhanded rumors that the dirt was unkind to Arazi (I don't really know if I buy into that one) and everyone knew he was going to have just one prep race, against the equivalent of low claimers. He had no hope against AP Indy with these things going against him.

Nobody at all, except for any idiot who bet Arazi, perhaps, was surprised by that outcome.

[miraja2]

In recent times it would have been nice to see Afleet Alex compete post-Belmont. His post-Derby performances hinted that Rose had finally figured him out, and even though he was not exactly facing terrific fields in those two races, I would have liked to see him against Flower Alley and Saint Liam in the fall of that year.

Other than that, I would have liked to have seen a nice long movie instead of the 2007 Pacific Classic, and I would have enjoyed seeing a match race this year between Rachel Alexandra and Pepper's Pride.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Or, how about that Apollo, coming off that Dinard loss, never was the same horse again, winning only one time in those last 17 races of his career? This from a horse with four wins and a head loss to Dinard in his first 6 starts???

Get real man!

For those keeping it real, Apollo was for the most part facing Cal-breds prior to his Herculean tussle with Dinard.

And, yes, Apollo would have been a monster had Dinard not ripped his heart out (by a head) in the San Rafael. See the '90 California Breeder's Championship for further evidence.

As for Hansel's GREAT three year old form going into the derby:

5th by 11 to Fly So Free in the FOY in a blazing fast 144.1

3rd by 5 to FSF again, in the Florida Derby. Strike the Gold second, a super blazing time of 150.2.

Then the 2.5 length win in the Jim Beam in 146.3 for 9f. Nice time, but beat Richman and Wilder Than Ever.

Then the romp in the Lexington. 9 length win over Shotgun Harry J. and Speedy Cure in 142.3.

Hansel did get sharp there, but against badly overmatched opponents and over lightning fast surfaces.

I'll take Dinard please.

So much for allowing horses like Hansel and Best Pal to race into peak form. No matter what you do later in the year, those losses in the prep races really come back to haunt you.

Just to come back to reality, recall that Hansel ended up a dual classic winner and Eclipse Champion while Best Pal won about a trillion dollars.

I guess we don't need to tackle the Preakness, where both of Dinard's archrivals in CA, Olympio and Best Pal couldn't get within 10 lengths of Hansel.

I followed the Arazi situation very closely. The trainer wanted no part of coming back to Kentucky, there were offhanded rumors that the dirt was unkind to Arazi (I don't really know if I buy into that one) and everyone knew he was going to have just one prep race, against the equivalent of low claimers. He had no hope against AP Indy with these things going against him.

The Prix Omnium II is a listed prep for the French 2000 Guineas. In recent years, Arlington Million winner Spirit One, multiple Group 1 winner American Post, Del Mar Derby winner Blackdoun, Champion winner Literato have come out of the race. The year after Arazi, future Queen Elizabeth winner Bigstone won it.

The claimers that Arazi handled that day, Supermec and River Majesty later came to the States and won or placed in stakes. River Majesty was multiple Group 1 placed to horses like Paradise Creek, Kiris Clown, and Solar Splendor.

If pedigree is any indication, Arazi was cut out to be a miler. His 3/4 brother by Rahy (a son of Arazi's sire, the good miler Blushing Groom), Noverre excelled at a mile. His second dam also produced middle distance turf horse, Joyeux Danseur.

Perhaps, like Apollo in the Jim Beam, he was simply out of his range. Of course, he never ran into Dinard prior to the Derby.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

So much for allowing horses like Hansel and Best Pal to race into peak form. No matter what you do later in the year, those losses in the prep races really come back to haunt you.

Just to come back to reality, recall that Hansel ended up a dual classic winner and Eclipse Champion while Best Pal won about a trillion dollars.

I guess we don't need to tackle the Preakness, where both of Dinard's archrivals in CA, Olympio and Best Pal couldn't get within 10 lengths of Hansel.

Wait. Weren't we talking about how Hansel and Dinard were running leading up to the derby, and why Dinard wasn't the lock I thought he was? I'm not sure what your points have to do with the original purpose of our comparisons. I certainly don't.

By the way, were you aware that Hansel ran in the Kentucky Derby and ran fifth by over 10 lengths? Do you think that if a healthy Dinard had run in the derby, that Hansel would have picked it up and ran better?

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The Prix Omnium II is a listed prep for the French 2000 Guineas. In recent years, Arlington Million winner Spirit One, multiple Group 1 winner American Post, Del Mar Derby winner Blackdoun, Champion winner Literato have come out of the race. The year after Arazi, future Queen Elizabeth winner Bigstone won it.

The claimers that Arazi handled that day, Supermec and River Majesty later came to the States and won or placed in stakes. River Majesty was multiple Group 1 placed to horses like Paradise Creek, Kiris Clown, and Solar Splendor.

At the time that race was run, most of the Euro commentators of the day stated that field was terrible. Arazi galloped and could have won by about 40.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

If pedigree is any indication, Arazi was cut out to be a miler. His 3/4 brother by Rahy (a son of Arazi's sire, the good miler Blushing Groom), Noverre excelled at a mile. His second dam also produced middle distance turf horse, Joyeux Danseur.

Perhaps, like Apollo in the Jim Beam, he was simply out of his range. Of course, he never ran into Dinard prior to the Derby.

A healthy and fit Arazi, yeah, that might have been a different story in his derby.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Wait. Weren't we talking about how Hansel and Dinard were running leading up to the derby, and why Dinard wasn't the lock I thought he was? I'm not sure what your points have to do with the original purpose of our comparisons. I certainly don't.

Well your other contention was that Dinard was lengths better than both Best Pal and Hansel (thus he was a lock). That almost certainly was not the case.

By the way, were you aware that Hansel ran in the Kentucky Derby and ran fifth by over 10 lengths? Do you think that if a healthy Dinard had run in the derby, that Hansel would have picked it up and ran better?

Actually, Hansel ran 10th as the favorite. Considering both his final prep efforts and subsequent classic runs, isn't that effort a bit of an anomaly?

And yet I'm sure Dinard couldn't possibly have thrown in a clunker (if he could actually make it to the starting gate), even though reports were that he was training poorly over the CD surface.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Well your other contention was that Dinard was lengths better than both Best Pal and Hansel (thus he was a lock). That almost certainly was not the case.

Watching him progress through his races, he was a horse to me that was already really good and had a ton more upside to him. So, to my eyes, he was already better than Hansel and/or Best Pal and I fully expected him to keep getting better.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Actually, Hansel ran 10th as the favorite. Considering both his final prep efforts and subsequent classic runs, isn't that effort a bit of an anomaly?

Sorry there, my mistake. I don't know why I thought he was fifth. I was probably overrating him??

I think his final two preps were really nice, but if there was an anomaly in his race record, those two races were it. As for his two classic wins, the Preakness was his shining moment, but Corporate Report and Mane Minister weren't much.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

And yet I'm sure Dinard couldn't possibly have thrown in a clunker (if he could actually make it to the starting gate), even though reports were that he was training poorly over the CD surface.

He never threw in a clunker.

As for those reports of him training poorly over the CD surface, I think that was entirely likely a result of his injury.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I think his final two preps were really nice, but if there was an anomaly in his race record, those two races were it. As for his two classic wins, the Preakness was his shining moment, but Corporate Report and Mane Minister weren't much.

You mean Travers winner Corporate Report? And again, let's ignore Best Pal and Olympio because they didn't actually hit the board so it was if they weren't even there.

Neither Olympio nor Best Pal had a viable excuse for getting lit up by Hansel in the Preakness. Both didn't miss anytime following their defeats and in fact finished the last half of the year strongly.

While one would have to concede off the winter Santa Anita races that Dinard held a slight edge over those two, it certainly wasn't anywhere near the tune of 10 lengths.

He never threw in a clunker.

As for those reports of him training poorly over the CD surface, I think that was entirely likely a result of his injury.

He also never ran anywhere outside of SA.

[CSC]

Dance Smartly vs. Black Tie Affair in the 91 Classic.

BTW I thought her BC Distaff was her second worst race of the year to the Prince of Wales at Fort Erie.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You mean Travers winner Corporate Report? And again, let's ignore Best Pal and Olympio because they didn't actually hit the board so it was if they weren't even there.

Neither Olympio nor Best Pal had a viable excuse for getting lit up by Hansel in the Preakness. Both didn't miss anytime following their defeats and in fact finished the last half of the year strongly.

While one would have to concede off the winter Santa Anita races that Dinard held a slight edge over those two, it certainly wasn't anywhere near the tune of 10 lengths.



He also never ran anywhere outside of SA.

Yeah, that Corporate Report. He won the Travers, yes. Whooopdee freakin doo.

You keep bringing up Best Pal. How well, exactly, did he do outside of California? Wasn't he one of those California superstars that did even better outside of California, or am I confusing him with Lava Man?

Olympio was a solid race horse, and on his best day pretty damn good. I really don't know how to place him in the context of this thread.