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#1
10-24-2009, 08:31 PM
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Grand Canyon as a 3yo.
2nd San Vicente and San Rafael to Mister Frisky 2nd Blue Grass to Summer Squall 1st Lexington 16th Kentucky Derby 5th King's Bishop to Housebuster retired Landaluce as a 3yo. 5th Hollywood Futurity to Roving Boy 1st Las Virgenes 1st Santa Susana 5th Santa Anita Derby 6th Test to Gold Beauty Lost Code in the 1987 and 1988 BC Classics. Would have allowed Cryptoclearance to run 3rd in consecutive years instead of Judge Angelucci and Waquoit. King Glorious face Easy Goer and Sunday Silence. King Glorious 3rd in a 3-horse field. By 10. The 1987 Travers on a fast track so when Java Gold kicked ass, there would have been no excuses. Other than every other starter in the race ran once every two weeks since February, including 2 if not 3 Classics. Dinard, Event of the Year, and Dehere in their respective Derbies. Dinard: Funny Cide still would have been the first gelding to win Derby since Clyde Van Dusen. Event Of The Year: Would have been transfered to Dick Mandella a year sooner after skipping the Illinois Derby (won by the mighty Yarrow Brae) to be an also-ran at CD. Dehere: Would have reversed form on Tabasco Cat, but not Brocco. Arazi sent to the Derby with more than that one 8f grass prep. 8th after a brilliant mid-race move. Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, and Holy Bull complete their 4yo seasons. Easy Goer: 2nd Arlington Match Race w/ Sunday Silence 2nd Woodward to Dispersal 2nd Jockey Club Gold Cup to Flying Continental 2nd NYRA Mile to Quiet American retired Sunday Silence: 1st Arlington Match Race w/ Easy Goer 1st Goodwood 3rd BC Classic retired Holy Bull: 2nd Donn to Cigar 1st Westchester 1st Met Mile 1st Brooklyn 1st Iselin 1st Whitney 2nd Woodward by a nose 1st NYRA Mile retired Ghostzapper vs. Smarty Jones. Smarty Jones last. Candy Ride in the 2003 BC Classic. 2nd to Pleasantly Perfect. Zenyatta face the boys. Add one length to Life Is Sweet's Hollywood Gold Cup effort. 
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#2
10-24-2009, 08:36 PM
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#3
10-24-2009, 08:37 PM
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__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#4
10-24-2009, 11:46 PM
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Capote, Houston, Ketoh (oh yeah, he died), Althea, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. He was implying Sunday Silence was better than Easy Goer, something I'm not convinced of. He was saying Java Gold had a soft schedule compared to the rest of the crop. He obviously had no appreciation for King Glorious (the horse), as yeah, he is certainly one of those overlooked horses in history that most people did not appreciate. I don't know what he was thinking with Dinard. That horse was a near certainty to win his derby. EOTY I agree with him, sorta. I doubt he could have beaten that field. I'm with you on Arazi too. What a waste. I always felt that that ******* trainer sabotaged him to prove his point. The last bits of his post I thought were good. Except for Candy Ride losing to PP. Of course, had Grand Canyon and Landaluce not died AND not been Lukas'd, who knows what they could have achieved.
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#5
10-25-2009, 12:05 AM
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How come to be "Lukas'd" doesn't mean to be like:
Tank's Prospect Winning Colors Tabasco Cat Thunder Gulch Timber Country Grindstone Editor's Note Charismatic Commendable Cat Thief Serena's Song Sharp Cat Lady's Secret Sacahuista I mean, he's had a little success with 3yos.
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#6
10-25-2009, 12:33 AM
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Tank's Prospect - won the preakness and DNF'd in the Belmont, never running again. Winning Colors - Never really the same after the Preakness. Stephens more to blame for that one I guess. Tabasco Cat - won the preakness and belmont, then closed out his career going 1 for 6. Thunder Gulch - Didn't make it to the BC of his 3yo year before being done. Timber Country - Retired after Preakness. Grindstone - I got a call a few minutes after the derby from a friend saying he was so messed up going into the derby, that immediately after the race the connections knew he was finished. Editor's Note - After his Super Derby win, ran 11 more times with one win, an alw race. That was his only ITM performance, and 7 of those 11 races were double digit losses. Charismatic - Broke down in the Belmont. Commendable - you gotta be kidding me. Cat Thief - Useful and did get the fluke BCC win. Worst crop in the last twenty years except for the Big Brown crop. Serena's Song - She stayed good for a long time. Tailed off a bit at the end. Sharp Cat - Got better with age. Lady's Secret - Tailed off pretty bad at the end there. Sacahuista - Nice filly Most of those you list tailed off real bad, burned out or got hurt. I also did mention he was more notorious with his 2yos in the 80s.
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#7
10-25-2009, 12:49 AM
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For a recent horse ... I would have liked to have seen Zaftig run on dirt again after her Acorn win last year.
In just her 5th lifetime start, Zaftig won the Acorn with a 113 Beyer. Since they've been published in the DRF in 1990, here are the top 3 all-time fastest winning Beyers in the Acorn. * 2008: Zaftig (113) * 1993: Sky Beauty (107) * 1997: Sharp Cat (103) At one point - Sky Beauty was 12-for-12 with 7 Grade 1 wins at Belmont Park. She was the queen of Belmont. Sharp Cat won back-to-back Grade 1's by daylight with Beyers of 112 and 119 at Belmont in her final two starts there. Zaftig ran exactly 8.5 lengths faster than the average winning Acorn figure... and the Acorn is a very serious race. Winners over that span include Meadow Star, Prospectors Delite, Sky Beauty, Inside Information, Sharp Cat, Jersey Girl, Three Ring, Bird Town, and Round Pond. Zaftig came back injured .. and made just one more start in her career. She finished 3rd off the layoff in last years synthetic BC Filly and Mare Sprint and got hurt again. It sounded a lot like her decision to run in the BC last year was an owners decision...and she was rushed to it.
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#8
10-25-2009, 01:04 AM
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Yeah, no doubt she was the best 3yo filly based in this country last year.
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#9
10-25-2009, 06:32 PM
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A deserving favorite perhaps, but then again, IIRC, Hansel was running much faster (at least in the Jim Beam). Obviously Hansel bombed on Derby day, but was his best race ultimately better than Dinard's? Quite possibly. What if he showed up on Derby Day? And what of Best Pal? Yes, Dinard got the better of him in the San Rafael (in Best Pal's 3yo debut off a 3 month layoff) and the Santa Anita Derby. But wasn't that somewhat of a winning profile for several Derby winners that decade? Silver Charm, Real Quiet, and Go For Gin were also only earning placings in their preps before "peaking" on Derby day. And in fact, Best Pal ran a huge race only to be beaten by Strike The Gold, who at the time was in very good form and getting as much press as any of the other principals. His typical Zito decline later on has no relevance here. Also of note is the results of the Strub series later that year when the roles between Dinard and Best Pal were reversed. Best Pal, in top form, was not threatened in the slightest by Dinard in either the San Fernando (at 9f) or the Strub (at 10f). Obviously, its quite possible Dinard's injury had residual effects that kept him from realizing his full potential, but obviously not enough to keep him from competing in Grade 1 events. Interestingly, both he and old rival Olympio never ran again after chasing Best Pal in the Strub series. Finally, Dinard worked notoriously poorly leading up to the Derby (6f in 1:18). Was he injured in the work? Probably, but he certainly didn't limp off the track (the injury wasn't detected until 4 or 5 days post-work), so it's still possible he didn't care for the CD surface. Last edited by RolloTomasi : 10-25-2009 at 06:54 PM.
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#10
10-25-2009, 07:31 PM
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Remember that when him and Best Pal were racing against each other, Best Pal was a far more experienced and seasoned horse. In my eyes, there was a large gap in talent between those two. And yeah, Dinard was nowhere near the same horse after the injury. It's pretty well established that horses are usually diminished after that injury, which is a testament to how good that horse would have been. To recap, Dinard didn't even debut until opening day of SA. He won by 5 in 109.3. Wheeled back in just two weeks in the Los Feliz, he wins by 6 in 135.3 over the VERY nice Olympio and Formal Dinner! Back a month later, he drops back down to 7f in the San Vicente and loses by a nose to Olympio, while 9 back in third was Scan. Time? 121.2 Three weeks later is the San Rafael. Back again to a mile, he gets a super hard fought win over the vastly underrated Apollo (by a head) with Best Pal also in the photo for third. Eight back to fourth. Time was 135.4. To this day, one of the best races I've ever seen and one of my favorites as well. Next up is the Santa Anita Derby. Another win over Best Pal in 148 flat, this time by a half length. At this point, he's got 4 wins and a tough beat second in 5 starts. This horse was the real deal and almost certainly was better than anything in the East that year. After the injury he made only three starts, all in the Strub series, and that was it. He never won, though he did get a 117 BSF in his last start for running second. That horse was simply great, no ifs ands or buts about it. By the way, your comparison with horses later that decade is irrelevant. If anything, Dinard was right in the middle of a streak where the Santa Anita Derby winner was seemingly cursed. After Sunday Silence won in 89: 1990 Mister Frisky. Almost dies during the triple crown from a throat abscess and never regained his winning ways. 1991 Dinard. See above. 1992 AP Indy. Scratched out of the Ky Derby on that very morning. 1993 Personal Hope. Never really heard from ever again. 1994 Brocco. Couldn't overcome Randy Winnick. Did he ever win again? 1995 Larry the Legend. Won the SA Derby and then didn't run again for like 15 months. 1996 was Cavonnier. I know he barely lost the derby, but wasn't he hurt shortly after that? In that span, I'd say Dinard and Indy were just about as close to locks as you can have in that race, had they not been hurt.
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#11
10-25-2009, 10:09 PM
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Further, let's look at strict form with regards to Hansel: Jim Beam: dusts Apollo by open lengths Preakness: dusts Best Pal and Olympio by open lengths That alone is enough to suggest that Hansel would have been a good matchup with Dinard (assuming Dinard was the West's best), and thus negates any suggestion that Dinard was some sort of "lock" in the Derby. Dinard strained some portion of his suspensory ligament roughly 10 days before the Kentucky Derby (3 weeks since the SA Derby) after breezing 6f in 1:18+ at CD. As for Best Pal, perhaps more seasoned, but he was making a somewhat belated 3yo debut (March) and had just 2 preps leading to the Derby. You could argue that Dinard had the advantage with all the recent racing (which may have ultimately been his undoing). As for the SA Derby history, not sure where you going with the curse thing (how would this help your argument that Dinard was a lock in the Derby anyways?), but I was suggesting that Best Pal's runner-up efforts didn't necessarily mean he was not as good as Dinard, but rather a result of "prepping" for a more important contest (which would fall in line with the fact that Best Pal started the season late). Alluding to Silver Charm (who chased Free House), Real Quiet (who chased Artax and Indian Charlie), and Go For Gin (Irgun, Holy Bull) who all ultimately won the Derby was supposed to lend plausability to that scenario. As for AP Indy, it seems contradictory to suggest he was a lock for the Derby as well, when you defend the thinking that Arazi was somehow cheated out of a Derby win (they both were entered for the '92 edition). If Arazi was scratched raceday along AP Indy, who would have been more of a lock?
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#12
10-25-2009, 11:37 PM
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How about the 45.3 and 109.3 splits he set? Or that he shipped to a surface that a lot of horses didn't like back then? Or, maybe coming back in less than four weeks off one of the most gut wrenching performances we've seen out of a sprinter going a mile, that maybe that took something out of him? Or, how about that Apollo, coming off that Dinard loss, never was the same horse again, winning only one time in those last 17 races of his career? This from a horse with four wins and a head loss to Dinard in his first 6 starts??? Get real man! As for Hansel's GREAT three year old form going into the derby: 5th by 11 to Fly So Free in the FOY in a blazing fast 144.1 3rd by 5 to FSF again, in the Florida Derby. Strike the Gold second, a super blazing time of 150.2. Then the 2.5 length win in the Jim Beam in 146.3 for 9f. Nice time, but beat Richman and Wilder Than Ever. Then the romp in the Lexington. 9 length win over Shotgun Harry J. and Speedy Cure in 142.3. Hansel did get sharp there, but against badly overmatched opponents and over lightning fast surfaces. I'll take Dinard please. Quote:
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Nobody at all, except for any idiot who bet Arazi, perhaps, was surprised by that outcome.
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#13
10-26-2009, 11:50 AM
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A. P. Indy was the furthest thing in the world from being a lock to win the Kentucky Derby.
It took him 1:49.25 to win the Santa Anita Derby. On the same exact day and at the same distance, New York reject Another Review won the San Bernadino in 1:47.33 seconds. People will point to the '92 Santa Anita Derby and call it a great race .. because the eventual Horse of the Year won, 2nd place finisher Bertrando would eventually become a champion older male, and 3rd place finisher Casual Lies would finish underneath in triple crown races. However, A. P. Indy was scratched out of his next start. Bertrando didn't run again for almost 9 months after the race. And Casual Lies is your typical grinding bridesmaid.. he only won a single race after the SA Derby, and it was at Golden Gate more than a year later. The '92 SA Derby may have great names attatched to it... but it was a painfully slow race with a couple of fine horses who battled physical issues beating a bridesmaid in dismal time.
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#14
10-24-2009, 11:02 PM
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The Westchester and Brooklyn?? I guess Cigar beats him again by a nose in the Woodward?  His intended campaign was supposed to be... Olympic Donn Santa Anita Handicap Met Mile Iselin Woodward BC Classic
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#15
10-25-2009, 06:47 AM
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Hybrid Mode
